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Subjects: Vietnamese invasion, starvation, border with Thailand
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SLOAN: This is Stephen Sloan. The date is August 8, 2015, and this is an
interview with Savann Kruoch at his home in Houston, Texas. This is an interview with the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission Survivor Genocide Oral History Project. Thank you, pastor, for sitting down with us today. As I said before we began, I'd like to spend a little bit of time talking about your early life in Cambodia. If you could, tell us a little bit about maybe your family background. I know you were born in 1954, you told me?KRUOCH: Yeah, but on my paper it's 1949.
SLOAN: Oh, so your paper says you're older than you actually are. That's good.
That's better than the other way. If you could, just spend a little bit of time talking about your family and some of your earliest memories there in Cambodia. 00:01:00KRUOCH: Yeah, my name is Savann Kruoch. I was born in Takeo province. My
parents, they were farmers. Especially my father, he was a very strong Buddhist. He was a monk before he married. Also, he was a Buddhist priest. I was born with them, and then I just followed them to go to [the] Buddhist temple all the time. Before the Communists took over, my father was very sick. He just passed away before the Communists took over, so I lived with my mother and also one of my 00:02:00sisters. I went to school over there, in my old village. It's just east of Takeo city, about three and a half kilometers from there.SLOAN: And not too far from Phnom Penh?
KRUOCH: It's about seventy-six kilometers.
SLOAN: Okay. What are some of your earliest memories, as you think about your
life there. We're going to talk about your life later, but in some of your early memories, what are some things that you remember?KRUOCH: I remember that I lived with my family. It was a really poor family in
the country, but just for surviving, not with a fancy house or something. After 00:03:00that, I was at school. Then, when the Communists took over, I had to move. I [was] separated from my mother and my sister to Phnom Penh, to continue my education. That's why I separated from them since 1977. I continued with my education in Phnom Penh, and the Communists took over in 1979. At that time, they just let all the people in the city get out. They said they were going to clean up, and after that, they're going to call them back. Finally, when we got out, we had no way to come back to the city or to find the family. Even myself, I tried to tell them that I'm going to go back to my home village to find my 00:04:00mother, my sister, and other relatives. They said, Okay, just wait until we clean up everything, and and after that you can go. We'll take you there. After a few months, it never happened, and they just load us in a truck. They said, Okay, where [do] you live? We will take you there. The truck was from China, and [it was] full of people, even children and adults together. Many of them died on the way. They did not drive through the street that they built, they just [drove] across the jungle. They got into the jungle, and they just drive and starve them without enough food. People [were] just dying on the way there, even 00:05:00children. They [were] starving and crying for food, and they cannot get it. We had nowhere [to go]; we didn't know that jungle.Finally, they took me to the place that is far away, close to [what] they call,
Prey Svay, in Pursat province. I lived there, close to the jungle, moving rice, plowing the rice field, and also making all the things that they want us to. Most of them are dying every day. They put me in a special group for the young 00:06:00people, especially most of the students. At that time, it's about two thousand of us. We are leaking and making the water--what do you call that?SLOAN: Doing the irrigation works?
KRUOCH: Yeah, irrigation.
SLOAN: So digging the trenches and--
KRUOCH: Yeah, and doing that. I think that you can see in The Killing Fields
movie, that is the thing we did [until] 1979. The Communists took over in 1975. I left my family since 1972.In 1979, before the Vietnamese invaded into Cambodia, I was sent into the jungle
00:07:00to cut the big, big tree, chopping and making ply wood for the people building the houses. Out of over two thousand young people, I have only twenty-five of us left there by the time the Vietnamese invaded. At that time, we just run [in] opposite ways, just across to the Vietnamese troops. They [were] still shooting, and one of my friends got shot and died. We just raise [our] hands and ran across. We got saved. We got through the Vietnamese troops, and they took us 00:08:00away. That's how we got out from there.SLOAN: Can I go back and ask some questions about the time period before you had
to leave your family, so your early life? Your family were rice farmers?KRUOCH: Yes.
SLOAN: Can you tell me a little bit about what your responsibilities were, that
work and what jobs you had?KRUOCH: At that time, I was really young. I left my parents, especially my
mother and my sister. I had no job, I was at school, and then I came to Phnom Penh, to the capital of Cambodia. I lived there, I went to high school there, 00:09:00and then took college there. I just lived with one of the pharmacy owners. They are in France right now. He just passed away about two years ago. I went over there to do the funeral for him, but his wife still survives also.SLOAN: Did your family decide that you needed to go to Phnom Penh?
KRUOCH: Yeah, it was better to let me go. My mother and my sister didn't want me
to go, but I said, "I have to go. I don't want to live with the Communists." That's what had happened at that time. When I left, I rode in a taxi. I remember, my mother just looked at me, you know, and all the time she was crying.SLOAN: It was hard. The Communists were taking control of the countryside at
00:10:00that time?KRUOCH: Yeah, at that time they [were] just moving in a little bit at a time to
close to the city. They disconnected it. They cut in the street so that people cannot connect together, even. At that time we had no phone to use, and we don't have anything to connect to each other. [My family and I] were disconnected since that day.SLOAN: I've read about it, but can you tell me a little bit more of what it was
like to experience that Communist advance taking more and more control in this early period that you're talking about?KRUOCH: The Communists, over that time, seemed like they are very polite to the
people. They try to get into the village. To be nice, they're asking for 00:11:00permission to stay there. Even the little fruit they wanted, they're asking, Can I have this? They were so nice to us. That's why all the people in the village just fell in love with them, to support them. They're so nice. By that time, they lived with the people in the village together, and they [were] protecting us. They did not allow anybody to steal anything or lose anything in the village. They're so nice, you know, they treat us nice. At that time, the American T-28 tried to bomb there. People [were] digging and getting into 00:12:00underground [shelters] to protect themselves, but [the Communists] still live with us. A lot of people died because of the bombs and the Vietnam War.SLOAN: Did the bombing affect your neighborhood?
KRUOCH: Yes, some.
SLOAN: I know you were still there during that period.
KRUOCH: Yeah, that's why I said I can't stay. I had to leave the family.
SLOAN: What were some things your family did to protect themselves from the bombing?
KRUOCH: They just stay underground there, and when it was quiet, they can get
out and do something.SLOAN: The planes would come probably at a regular time.
KRUOCH: (both talking at once) People would just run and get into the cave
there, whenever they can.SLOAN: Well, let's transition to when you went to the city. That must have been
00:13:00exciting--a very different life for you, living in the city and going to school, than living in the country and working on the farm.KRUOCH: Yeah, it's still scaring me, because I had a bad dream already. I saw
them come to kill people, then also the bombings. I still feel very bad, and I was thinking about my mom and my sister also, and how they were doing. Because we cannot connect, we don't know [how] each other is in that time. It's hard for us to know each other. It's still bad. In my life, [I am] getting ready to live in the city, but my mind is still with them. Anyway, I worked in a pharmacy at 00:14:00that time. Also, I go to school, live with [the pharmacist and the pharmacist's family] there. They are so nice for me to live with them.SLOAN: Can you tell me a little bit what the city was like during that time?
KRUOCH: That time the city was really beautiful, and it felt safe for us. Also,
[there's] not too much traffic, but when I went there [recently], I got lost. I cannot recognize anything because everything changed completely in my home village. Everything [was] gone, and they built a new one. I did not recognize anything. Even the trees they cut off it. I did not recognize it.SLOAN: Were you the first one in your family to have a college education?
00:15:00KRUOCH: Yes. Yeah, there's only me because my older sister stayed with my mom.
SLOAN: What did you study in college?
KRUOCH: I want to be a pharmacist at that time. I feel like that job is better
for me than [to] become a doctor to see sick people. That way, I can stay in the pharmacy distributing medicine and look at the prescriptions. I think it [was] easier for me to do that.SLOAN: Did your interest in that come from this job that you had at a pharmacy?
KRUOCH: Yeah.
SLOAN: How did you get that job?
KRUOCH: Oh, the job right now?
SLOAN: No, how did you get the job at the pharmacy?
KRUOCH: Oh, over there?
SLOAN: Uh-huh.
KRUOCH: I have a connection with my friend, and they introduced me to the
pharmacy there. They said okay, they want me to work for them. That's why I can 00:16:00connect with them. Then I stayed with them. They know [my situation], and they looked [at] it and they allowed me to stay with them. They love me as one of their children also.SLOAN: It sounds like you were part of a lot of young people that were leaving
the countryside to go to the city.KRUOCH: Yes.
SLOAN: I know what's going to happen when the Communists take over, that they're
really going to come down on the cities.KRUOCH: Yes.
SLOAN: Were you able to go back and visit your family during this period?
KRUOCH: No, I didn't, because they won't allow us. When the Communists took over
there, we cannot go anywhere unless we get permission from them, [tell] them 00:17:00where you want to go and when you're coming back. They won't give us the permission to [be gone] for a few days, because we had to work. Everybody had to work, to do the job on a daily basis. We cannot go anywhere without work, cannot travel. We had no car and we had no bicycles to ride to go somewhere. When we go somewhere, we had to walk, and when we walked, the soldiers are everywhere. We cannot escape. Yeah, that's what happened. We cannot go anywhere.SLOAN: Were you getting news during this period, say from '72 to '75? Were you
getting news on what the Communists were doing or news of how the situation was changing?KRUOCH: Yeah, the situation--we feel like that the Communists won't win the war
anyway, because we know that from inside, the [Cambodian army was] a really 00:18:00strong army, and we didn't feel that [the Khmer Rouge would win]. Because of this [failure to aknowledge the possibility that the Khmer Rouge might win], because inside [Phnom Penh] they feel like that, maybe [that's why the city fell]. They talked to each other or something and tried to make peace. Whatever happened, [the Khmer Rouge] got in there, [into Phnom Penh]. [There wasn't] a big fight that time they got into the city. I don't know how that would be, because, at that time, I was in the pharmacy still. They get into the pharmacy and they asked to buy some medicine. Even they didn't know what they wanted to buy. They again ask and we just gave it to them. Later on, when they got into 00:19:00the whole city, they said, Okay, you just close and then you [are] just out. Don't take anything with you. We're going to clean up everything and then you can come back. That's what happened.SLOAN: When you got to the city, you probably began to learn more about what was
going on outside of Cambodia, more than you did when you were at home. You learned what had happened in Vietnam and the experience in Vietnam, there with the Communists.KRUOCH: Yeah, Vietnam had a war before us. We know that, but it's not really as
strong, like in Cambodia. It seemed like a normal thing for us. It's not a big thing for us, and we thought that maybe it's not really big in Cambodia, anyway. 00:20:00That's what we feel like.SLOAN: You didn't feel like it was going to grow.
KRUOCH: Yeah. We didn't feel like that they are killing people like or they
treat us badly, like not providing food for us. We worked over ten hours a day and no food. I ate everything [at] that time. Whatever we can eat, we just eat. We don't care. We just try to fill up our stomachs. My stomach at that time [was] [distended], big but it's skinny. (laughs) [I had swelling] over whole leg and body, also. I was sick so many times, and I thought I won't live. 00:21:00SLOAN: This was when you were on the farm.
KRUOCH: Yeah, in the Communist regime.
SLOAN: Can you tell me a little bit about that transition? You're in the city,
you're in college, when do you start feeling the danger change there?KRUOCH: When I was in the city, I didn't feel that I faced the danger there. I
feel it's still safe, because I didn't see my people killing each other like that. I feel like I put trust in them, because they had to clean up everything, maybe a lot of things, there. We hope that we can come back. But, when we got out [of Phnom Penh], we can see that it's a different thing, [the way that] they are treating people. When they took power, they treated people badly, because 00:22:00they don't want them to do anything. [They even] tried to collect all the clothes there, even my clothes. They give us new ones. We got the black uniform--you know, black clothes. The ones that we have on, they say that you don't need it and just took it away. They tried to throw everything, even IDs or birth certificates, photos, whatever we have with us, and just destroy it, and it was just burning. They said we don't need that.SLOAN: Leave all that behind.
KRUOCH: Yeah, so they just destroy everything. They don't want you to have it.
(phone rings) I'm sorry.SLOAN: That's all right. You said when you were in the city the Communists came.
00:23:00As they took power in the city, they said, We're going to gather everyone together. We're going to take you outside the city. We're going to clean up the city, and then we're going to bring you back, right?KRUOCH: Yeah, they promised in a few days you will come back.
SLOAN: Then, they loaded you on to buses, you said?
KRUOCH: No. We just got out by our own at that time. Everybody had to get out.
Even sick people in the hospital had to get out. They carried sick people. Pregnant [women had to] deliver on the way. You're just on the street. Everybody get out. There's no exception, even monks, everybody get out. They said, everybody must get out.SLOAN: Where did you go?
KRUOCH: They just direct us.
SLOAN: Where did they send you?
KRUOCH: To, you know, go to the west side. Yeah, we [were] just walking,
00:24:00following each other, wherever they direct us to go. We don't know where we would be. Yeah. We go this way, this way, and when they tell us to turn this way, go this way; you had to follow them because they carry guns. They're pointing, go, go. (laughs)SLOAN: They didn't answer questions?
KRUOCH: No, they did not [answer] us. They just [said] go, just get out soon,
when we [asked]. Also, they mentioned that Americans [are going] to bomb the city, so you had to go out fast, you had to move fast. Americans will come by to bomb.SLOAN: I see. I'm imagining just a long line.
KRUOCH: Yeah, a big crowd, and even sick people that they had to carry, babies
and small children, everybody. Some of them just have a bag with them. They 00:25:00don't have anything. They don't have any food with them or anything, just walk out.SLOAN: Did you have friends you were trying to find or people that you knew that
you were trying to find?KRUOCH: Yeah, I tried, but I can't find anybody, because at that time, you
cannot go to contact anybody. You had to follow them. You had to get out separately, you know. [If] you live [in] a different part of the city, they can direct you to go a different direction, so everybody had to follow them. We cannot say, I want to go see my brother or sister. They say, No, you have to go. Later on you can.SLOAN: So how long did that take, this journey that you went on out of the city?
KRUOCH: We don't know where we're going to stay, because we were just walking
00:26:00day and night and just sleeping on the street. Whenever they said, Okay, you can stay there. They can tell us to stay, and the people [on the road] are still moving to different places. It's up to them [where] they want us. Some of them might [have walked] a week, some of them maybe a month.SLOAN: When did you know you had reached a destination that you were going to stop?
KRUOCH: It took me about a few days, not too far from the city, but by walking.
You know, [we] walked there. We stayed there and worked for a while. That's when I tried to ask them that I want to go to see my family. They said, Okay, you can 00:27:00wait. At that time, I stayed over there for a couple of months and waited, and I keep asking them and they said okay. That's why they [were] loading me in a truck, they say they're taking me, and whoever, to go to their home to see family. They said, Okay, you get into the truck. That's at that time.SLOAN: Now this place where you stayed two months, were you just sleeping out on
the ground?KRUOCH: They have a house with people there.
SLOAN: They took over a house?
KRUOCH: Yeah. Also, they have a center that they wanted us to stay temporarily there.
SLOAN: You were doing rice farming?
KRUOCH: Yeah, they want us [to] just to stay and wait. They'll tell you early
morning you have to get up, plowing or growing something, doing work in the fields.SLOAN: With armed guards?
KRUOCH: Yeah.
SLOAN: --watching over you.
KRUOCH: Yeah, all with the armed guards always with us. We cannot do anything,
00:28:00just doing the job, cannot talk.SLOAN: What happened if you talked?
KRUOCH: When we talked they will take us away. I saw some of them when they
talked, immediately taken and then not come back. That's what had happened. They're always tricking us, asking us, Do you speak French, or do you speak English, or something? Then they try to ask.SLOAN: Then you didn't speak French or English?
KRUOCH: Yeah, I said, "No, I'm a farmer." (laughs) Some people already told me
that when they ask you, don't say anything, just farmer. It seemed like [it was] helping me at that time, just reminded me. Don't tell them you do anything or 00:29:00that you're educated. Just tell them that you are doing farm work with your parents. They'll test us, send us to do the farming. I was a farmer, also. I can do it, (laughs) so I can survive.SLOAN: They're very hard on the sick, and the old, and the young.
KRUOCH: Yeah.
SLOAN: So two months pass and they say, Load up and we're going to take you back
to where you can see your family?KRUOCH: Yeah, that's what they promised us.
SLOAN: That's what they said. Okay.
KRUOCH: Yeah, like I said, at that time, they took us and drive across the
jungle. We don't know where we were going. We know [the jungles] where we live, so they just [want to] get us in the jungle that we didn't know. By the time 00:30:00they stop, we are somewhere else.SLOAN: Yeah, you probably knew pretty quickly that you weren't--
KRUOCH: Oh yeah. We know that we won't get to our home village, anyway.
SLOAN: Tell me a little bit more about this next camp where you're going to
spend quite a bit of time on the farm where you're going to go. Can you tell me a little bit about when you got there and what that was like?KRUOCH: Yeah, I got there, and we had to build our own barn to stay there.
Everybody had to cut the tree and build a home and to sleep there, stay there, make a roof that we can stay [under]. Early morning, they always whistle us to get up and then go to work. It's about four or five in the morning [when] they 00:31:00usually alert us to get up and go out to work. Nobody can stay, everybody had to get up. They will assign us [jobs]. Okay, you have do this, you have to do that. They would also guard us. The army [was] always with us there to tell us what we had to do when. They stand there and see all the time. If you cannot do it, they can kick you, they can hit you, beat you with their gun or whatever. Some people just die on the spot. They cannot do the job.SLOAN: Were you getting fed? What was your food?
KRUOCH: They did not give us food, because by the time they had food, they gave
the people who were cooking the food a can of rice [to feed] thirty people or 00:32:00so. [They would] mix it with so many vegetables, or pig food, or whatever they were feeding animals. We just ate, and we had no energy at all. That's why the people were skinny. Their stomachs become weak and then get swollen all over. If you try to grow something by your barn, [the guards] won't [let you]. They will put it out--won't let you grow anything. They collect all the plates, or pots, or pans. Whatever you have, they collect it all. We don't have anything, just ourselves, and we stayed there. Sleep then work, that's all, no food stored in 00:33:00your place.SLOAN: You said they put you on a team of younger men? Can you tell me about that?
KRUOCH: Yeah. They put me in a group of about two thousand young people digging
and working very hard. [We would] do the irrigation and building the street, and they decided that we had to produce rice and the other things, also. By the harvest time, we tried to get the [rice we had grown] to feed us. Then, nothing was enough. They took it all away, we don't know where, and they just gave us 00:34:00water. They don't want to give us [the rice] to eat.SLOAN: What I know about rice farming is these were new rice fields that they
were establishing. A lot of work, a lot of labor, very labor intensive--KRUOCH: At that time, we were using the hoes to dig, not just using the cow to
plow. Everybody had to have a hoe and to dig with it.SLOAN: Very bad tools to work with.
KRUOCH: Yeah, we don't have any equipment for us to use or anything. We had to
use our own power to do it, even [though] we don't have enough food. That's the thing. They tried to kill people that way. Even if they tried to shoot all of 00:35:00them, it won't happen. The people might fight back. But, if they try to do something that makes the people become weak, they cannot fight back.SLOAN: Working people to death, without food.
KRUOCH: Yes, starving them. They have no power to do anything, that's how they
tried to trick people to do that.SLOAN: You talked about earlier where you weren't allowed to talk. Were you
allowed to have a little more community at this farm? Could you interact with each other?KRUOCH: You cannot have a group together or anything. When you get out on work,
you have to stay by your own. You have no connection.SLOAN: Yeah, so you stayed in your individual house.
KRUOCH: Yeah. Yeah. You have no talking. You didn't know, because even at night,
00:36:00they stayed on the side of our home listening to us. You have no authority to have a wife or get married, but if they assign you--Okay, you have to marry this woman--we have to do it. We cannot say no. They use their power to do that, even if you're not in love with each other. They said you have to marry with this one.SLOAN: I just imagine that it's more and more death, week by week, month by
month. Are there more people coming into the farm? Are there new people coming into the farm?KRUOCH: We don't have new [people] coming. They already assigned the groups
00:37:00different areas in different places, and everybody is working. You don't have new [people] coming. Anybody who wants to move to go to the other places cannot unless they assign you to.SLOAN: So what kept you going?
KRUOCH: (laughs) We have no choice. (laughs) That's all. We have no choice. We
don't have anything. Everybody [is] independent. We cannot help each other. We cannot talk. We cannot discuss anything with each other. We just live like that, [doing] whatever they want us to do and waiting until [the guards] want to kill us. Then, we're killed.SLOAN: You went through one harvest the first year. You said the harvest the
00:38:00first year, you didn't get any. You had hoped that you would get some food from that harvest.KRUOCH: Yeah, we hoped to get it, because we kind of see the fruit there, the
production there. It's very few there. I feel like we're never short of food either, you understand. We don't know where they took [the rice we produced], but I heard that they took it to China. That's what they said.SLOAN: That's what I've read; they were trading it with other countries.
KRUOCH: That's why they brought in the truck or bicycles from China; they trade
with that, I think.SLOAN: Oh, they brought in a truck and bicycles?
KRUOCH: Yeah, bicycles from China and also a truck from China. All the materials
that we use is all made in China. Maybe they traded all of [the rice] with the 00:39:00Chinese people.SLOAN: Just so I'll remember the timeline, you go to the farm in '75. Is that right?
KRUOCH: Yeah, you're right.
SLOAN: Okay, so you're working. You're finding food when you can. When does this
situation start to change?KRUOCH: The situation changed after the Vietnamese took over--invaded into
Cambodia. Then is the time that we got out from [the Khmer Rouge].SLOAN: That's in '79.
KRUOCH: Yeah, that's '79, but in'75, you have no way to get out. We had to leave
what we have.SLOAN: How did you survive for four years doing this?
KRUOCH: Especially for me, I feel like God might [have] saved my life. That's
00:40:00why I became a Christian, too. One of the old women, she fell in love with me and [she] provide me [with food] sometimes. She's the one who cooks food for the group. She always advise me that you don't have to talk, you don't say anything. That always happened. She knows that we don't have food. She always save a piece of rice for me. She told me, "Okay, sometimes you have to be careful. Whenever you have time to get out, come get this." She saved my life. She has one son and one daughter; they were in [the] army, also. She didn't tell her children about anything she gave me. Finally, before the Vietnamese invaded there, she died, 00:41:00that woman. Then, the Vietnamese invaded, and I had a chance to run out. I think that's the miracle of my life.SLOAN: Yeah, that little bit of food made a big difference.
KRUOCH: It helped me. It was helping me. When she met me sometimes, she was with
tears coming down. She [would] feel so bad about it, but she can't do anything.SLOAN: Did you ever have an opportunity to have conversations with the guards
that were guarding you? 00:42:00KRUOCH: No.
SLOAN: No?
KRUOCH: You cannot talk to them. You cannot ask them any questions, even barely
to see their face. You cannot just look at them. We're scared to look at their faces.SLOAN: It's amazing. It is as you say. She was an angel.
KRUOCH: That's why God sent an angel, to help me [until] just before the
Vietnamese invaded, carry me until she died. Then, I can have freedom [at] that time--release.SLOAN: When did you have ideas that the Communists were being threatened, or
that there was another power in play? 00:43:00KRUOCH: They promised us in just a few days, we would go back. That time, we
waited months and months, and it never happened, us working very hard and no food. I recognized that that was a threat come to our life.SLOAN: Can you walk me through when the Vietnamese came, just that experience?
KRUOCH: Yeah, when the Vietnamese came, I was in the jungle and in the mountain
area there. I just walked in the opposite way to them. We have nothing, just raised [our] hands. We don't know anything of war. They still [were] on the other side there, fighting the [Khmer Rouge soldiers] who were still fighting, 00:44:00also. We try our best to escape that. Some of them step on mines and get killed when they step into the jungle. [There were] mines everywhere. You have to be careful when you walk. That's why they put mines everywhere in the jungle. That's why they don't let the people to get out anywhere, to go the way that they want us to go. If you try to step out to get on the side, you will explode by the mine, there are so many of them. We just [followed] them [and did] what they told us to do. We cannot do anything else.SLOAN: When the Vietnamese were coming, did the guards round you up?
KRUOCH: Because it's a lot of enemies and just bombs everywhere, they tried to
00:45:00protect themselves. Also, they're hiding. That's why we can escape and get out.SLOAN: Tell me that story about escaping and getting out.
KRUOCH: Escaping, that's why we run. At that time, I still have living about
twenty-five [out of the original two thousand in the camp]. We have about four or five of us only together. One of them just stepped on a mine and died, and another got shot. That's my friend, who worked in the pharmacy together. He got shot. Finally, the three of us got out there to meet with the Vietnamese troops. They just let us get out to go in the back and they just moved in. We just 00:46:00walked. We didn't know where we would go. We just go there because we cannot find anything. When we got back there, we just meet some people also. We tried to get something to eat and start our new life.SLOAN: You just went east? You just tried to go east?
KRUOCH: Yeah, I tried to go back to the city, because they kicked the Khmer
Rouge out of the city. That's where we tried to go to get something to eat.SLOAN: You said your friend got shot. Did he get shot by the guard?
KRUOCH: I think, by the Vietnamese who were--
SLOAN: I see, were coming in. What was the first thing you had to eat?
00:47:00KRUOCH: One thing I had to eat, that time we got out, I think, we got some rice.
We can see some rice left over, and we can cook, and eat. (laughs) That's the first time, but by that time, some of them die because they've been starving so long, that when they start to eat and cook rice, they ate a lot and just die. They were so hungry.SLOAN: Did it make you sick when you ate first?
KRUOCH: Yeah, now maybe the stomach not work very good, not digest it. [People]
just kind of [had a] heart attack and just die. They choked or something. Maybe 00:48:00the food was not digested, a lot of gas or whatever. That can kill them.SLOAN: You got out, and you wanted to go to the city. Tell me about what the
city was like when you went into the city?KRUOCH: The city is like a ghost city. Nobody was there. Everything [was] messed
up, but we're scared to go into it, [because] we don't know what's in there. I was scared to get into there. We just stayed outside, were scared to get inside. We don't know what's in there.SLOAN: Oh, so you didn't go in?
KRUOCH: Yeah, maybe they [were] hiding or whatever. We did not get in there.
(laughs) We're still out there to see what is the situation.SLOAN: What did you decide to do next?
KRUOCH: Next, we tried to find the way to go back to our home villages, but we
00:49:00cannot go because [there was] no transportation. Nothing can help us. That's why I escape to the west side, to the border of Thailand and Cambodia, right there.SLOAN: When you escaped that direction, when you went out that way, did you
encounter help?KRUOCH: It's not help, we [were] independent at that time. We tried our best to
try to get food. The three of us get together and tried to work for someone there to get something to feed us and to stay there for a while. Then, we figured out that we have a group along the border of Thailand and Cambodia. We 00:50:00tried to escape it to get there. It might be that we had a chance to get out, because I feel like I [can't] trust anymore. It's not safe for us to stay in Cambodia. That's why all of us decide to get out. But, one of my friends said he didn't want to get out; he wanted to go back to his home village. Only two of us that time got out. Finally, the other friend and I separated also. He went somewhere else.SLOAN: Were you able to cross the border?
KRUOCH: I stayed on the border, but in the Cambodian part. We stayed in a camp
there. They formed a liberty army there along the border of Cambodia and 00:51:00Thailand. They tried to fight back with the army inside to get freedom. I stayed with them there for a couple of months, before I crossed the border to get into [the] refugee camp in Thailand.SLOAN: I see. What were you doing while you were there for two months? Just
getting your strength back?KRUOCH: Just tried to figure out what I had to do over there, and tried to work
with them and what's going to happen there. I just joined with them a little bit to try to survive. Later on, I heard that they opened refugees to get into Thailand. That's why I figured out that I don't want to stay, because it's not safe for me. I had to get out to the refugee camp. 00:52:00SLOAN: Yeah, tell me about your experience at the refugee camp in Cambodia.
KRUOCH: The refugee camp, that's another thing. We stay there, but we feel like
[it's] better than where we were. We have food the United Nations provided to us, with the dry fish. At least they gave us some chicken and rice. Every day they give it to us. We just stayed in the camp there, and I [worked] in the pediatric hospital there in the refugee camp. I worked in the pharmacy distributing medicine to the patients in the refugee camp. I worked with the head nurse to help him, I managed the supply in the hospital, and also all 00:53:00medication. I [did] the inventory and also ordered the supplies and medicine when they were short. I [had] a good time there. (laughs)SLOAN: I think it was also there where you had a religious experience. Was it
there at the refugee camp?KRUOCH: Yeah, but at that time, I [was] still not a Christian. I became a
Christian when I got out from the hospital--from my work. I tried to get out to go around in the camp to [see] if I knew anybody or [had] any friends or relatives who came to the camp also. I met with a few people sitting under a 00:54:00small tree there. They opened the book, and I said maybe they have something I'm interested in. So many years [had past] already, I tried to catch up, you know, maybe I [should] stop to learn something. I tried to ask them to join with them, you know, "Can I join you with what you learn here?" They said, Yeah, yeah, come join us. I met with them and they invite me. They just opened and studied the book of John. That's what happened. I joined with them, and I said, "What is that?" asking them. They said, "This is the good news and we're learning and talking about Jesus Christ." I felt like [it was] interesting, and at that time I started to join them. That's why I became a Christian. I [was] baptized in a container where they [share] the water with the refugees there. There's about 00:55:00thirty of us who [were] baptized in that container (laughs).SLOAN: I know you're wondering about your family this whole time, wondering
what's going on with your family.KRUOCH: Yeah, that's why I [felt] lost. I didn't hear anything. I tried my best
to figure out, but I have no connections. I know nobody. By the time I came to the United States, I tried to write a letter to just send it to whoever I know there. I just tried to get that letter to try to find somebody there. [Finally], I got that letter. It took me about a year, just a letter. One of my cousins got 00:56:00that letter and he explained that your sister already died and your mom died. So many of our relatives died at that time. Only, two or three cousins have survived there. Later, I found out that one of my nieces survived. When I left, my niece was just a baby at that time. She's there, and her mom passed away--she got killed. That's why, now I have only one niece there in Cambodia. She has a family there. I tried to sponsor her at that time, but you cannot sponsor nieces or nephew, just closer relatives. That's why she's still there. 00:57:00SLOAN: Was your family or your mother and your sister, were they taken to
another farm to work? Do you know what happened to them?KRUOCH: I didn't know what happened. I have no information. That's why in my
first trip in 1996, when I went back, I tried to go to my home village. I did not recognize anything. I cannot find any house from before--it's gone, any trees, everything. On the way, I got lost. Even the people there, I didn't know who they are. Later on, I found some people I knew. They came back there. That's what I found out, and then they told me about [how] your mom got sick and didn't 00:58:00have any medicine or anything to help her, and your sister died because [she was] starving. That's what I found out.SLOAN: When we left off talking, we were in the refugee camp. How long were you
in the Thailand refugee camp?KRUOCH: It was about a year.
SLOAN: About a year?
KRUOCH: Yeah.
SLOAN: Okay. You said you were enjoying your work in the pharmacy, you helping
out, and you're enjoying these new friends you made.KRUOCH: At that time, the hospital [caught] on fire. I [had the] key with me. I
put it on my neck there. The store room, everything, I have a key for it. When the hospital was on fire, one of the doctors told me that I had to escort one of 00:59:00the patients out, so I took him out. They cannot find me at all, so it was completely gone, but they didn't say any word to me because it's not my fault (laughs). The Thai people just try to drive a truck to get there to get some medicine to load in the truck during that time when the place was not on fire yet. They saved some medicine. That time is sometimes good, some bad. The thing is, it's better than the Communists (laughs).SLOAN: Anything's better than the Communists.
KRUOCH: Yeah, better, but I [am] still lonely and missing the family. At that
01:00:00time, I had no friends. I didn't know anybody. Later on, I met my pharmacy owner over there in a different camp. That's why we had a connection when they went to France, and I came to the United States.SLOAN: You were able to visit other camps?
KRUOCH: Yeah, before we came to the United States, we had to go to the other
camp. It's not only one camp, but two or three camps.SLOAN: As you are there at the camp, you're trying to figure out what your
options are as far as what you're going to do next.KRUOCH: Yeah, they gave us an option of which country you want to go if you have
any relatives, I just applied for all of them. I just want to get out, even [to] 01:01:00Australia, France, New Zealand, USA, or whatever. I applied to all of them. Who called first, go first (laughs). I don't want to stay there.SLOAN: And so you got a call?
KRUOCH: Yeah, I got a call, at least to go for the interview.
SLOAN: Yeah, well, tell me about that.
KRUOCH: This is not a story when I interviewed with them. The first thing,
French embassy called, and I interviewed with them. I passed it, so I moved from the camp along the border, from Khao-I-Dang Camp to Suon Phlu Camp in Bangkok. That [was] the transit camp. We waited over there to get the passport and some other documents approved from the sponsor so that we can go. I waited there for 01:02:00over a month. Then, finally, they told me that I have no sponsor. Then [I] wait and wait, and [there was] no response from the sponsor. They sent me back to the camp at the border. I don't know what happened. Maybe it's not God's will, maybe--I don't know. I volunteered with some Christian ladies distributing clothes in Suon Phlu Camp in Bangkok, just over a month there. They tried to help me, too, but they said [my] sponsor did not respond. How will you go? So, they are not allowing me. Everybody that come after me are gone. They fly 01:03:00[away], but they sent me back. I liked my former camp, and I wanted to go back, but somebody [is staying] there already, and I have no place. When I checked with them, they tried but they have no places for me. [My wife's group] was staying in the camp. Her uncle was a group leader. He tried to make a space for me to stay there [at their camp]. I stayed with them, and that's [how] I got to know my wife and my wife's family.SLOAN: You met her in the camp?
KRUOCH: Yeah.
SLOAN: Okay.
KRUOCH: I met her in the camp, her mother--she [had] lived with us [since] the
beginning--and her other four sisters and one brother. All her sisters are here, 01:04:00and now her brother is in Grand Prairie. I know I'm by myself, and by the time they called for the interview of my wife's family to the United States, I [had] not [been] called yet. Her brother decided, he said, "Oh, I don't want to go. I want to go back to Cambodia." Only the mother and the four sisters wanted to come, so I had to take my role to replace him. I had to take his name to be with 01:05:00the family. They want me to join with them, so I decided just to try to go and join with them to the interview. [At] the interview, they looked at you. They asked [to] look [at] me and the other sisters, and said you [do] not look alike. Also, that's why my age is changed now.This is a long story. (laughs) I don't know how God worked in this way, but the
thing [that] they kept asking about when [I] lived with [my] family. They called one by one. They asked my mother-in-law first, what she has in her house, where 01:06:00she lived, and [about] the house, and asked all my sisters-in-law, also. Then they called me, and it's time to ask me. They [asked] me the same questions. They asked what had been in the house and all the things. I don't [have a clue] what they're asking for, but--I don't know how--God gave me the wisdom. I said, "Oh, I [was] separated with them since I was a young child. I don't know what they have later. I lived in Phnom Penh. I'm not living with them. I live with somebody." Because I did not know. I did not live with them. I had just met them. And they just didn't say anything. (laughs) That's why I was allowed to 01:07:00come with the family. (laughs) Later on, when I came here in 1981, I declared to change back to my name. They did a blood test, whatever, DNA, and that's why I can [get married to] my wife. If [I had kept my brother-in-law's identity], I cannot marry my sister, so that's what had happened. (laughs) Yeah, that's a long story.SLOAN: So, your brother-in-law was born in 1949?
KRUOCH: Yeah, now he came [to the United States]. Later on, he asked me, "Oh, I
cannot live in Cambodia. Help me." We sponsored him to come, (laughs) so we came together.Yeah, that's a long story. That's the thing, I don't know how God worked in my
life. When I start a mission here to start a church also, God was calling me the 01:08:00same the same way he called me for the first time when I was in the refugee camp. One of our mission ministers at Memorial Baptist Church saw a small group of people, sitting under the tree most nights, here, close to the church. He called me. He say, "Hmm, can you help me? I saw a group of Asians under the tree. I thought that maybe [they're] Cambodian. Can you come? They need a place to meet." I said, "Yeah, I can help with it." I came with him. His name was Franklin Beam. He's a mission minister at Memorial Baptist Church. I came with 01:09:00him, and then they were Vietnamese, Catholics.After that, he told me, "Can you find out [if] you know any Cambodians living in
this area that you have a connection with?" Later on, I tried to do research [to find] any Cambodians. I met one family, [who were] Cambodians. That's how I started the church. I got one family, and then tried to have a Bible study. Later on, we found another family and then we made it at Memorial Baptist Church. We started our mission there in 1985. Our church exists up until today. God is still blessing us, so we get more families moved, and then we get more 01:10:00people to join us at the church. That's why we started the church. Later on, we got a donation for that church [building]. We didn't buy it, they donated it to us. That's what we have now, our own church, [First Cambodian Baptist Church, Aldine TX]. Also, we are doing a mission. That's why God is so good. I know that God had a plan for me. I feel like that without him, I don't know where I am, so that's amazing for me.SLOAN: The experience that we've talked about in Cambodia, how do you think
that's affected you as a pastor?KRUOCH: Relate that story to [you] in [my] role of pastor right now--I just
01:11:00forget everything and forgive. I didn't take anything with me. Whatever they treat me, whatever they did to me, I just forgive it. That's why I had to go back to share the gospel to them, to share the love of God, and also to witness to those people, even I know they treated me badly. I try to tell them I forgive you.SLOAN: As we said before, you were about to take your fifth or fourth trip back
to Cambodia?KRUOCH: Uh-huh.
SLOAN: You have a mission trip coming up in October?
KRUOCH: Yeah, October, this year. We are leaving on October the fifteenth, and
we will get there on October the seventeenth. When we get there [in the] early 01:12:00morning, eight forty, we already have a plan. We just leave the airport, go to the field, and stay there. We don't have to waste time to stay in Phnom Penh. (laughs)SLOAN: Yeah, out into the country. I know that there are things that stay with
you. Sometimes you have dreams. Sometimes you remember things. What are some of things that have been challenging for you from that experience?KRUOCH: The challenging [things for] me right now, even nightmares or whatever
happened to me, I just pray to God. I give everything to God. God can help me with those kind of things, because I cannot control [them] by myself. I cannot 01:13:00do it myself, but God will help me through that.SLOAN: Well, I wanted to make sure I had an opportunity--Nathan Roberts and Dr.
Melissa Sloan are with us also, as part of the project team, and so they're here with us. Nathan, did you have any questions that you wanted to ask?ROBERTS: Yeah, I've got one or two. I want to go back to the farm under
Communist control and the woman there. What was her name, do you remember? Her name? The woman who gave you the rice?KRUOCH: Oh, Tip, Tip, T-i-p. Yeah.
ROBERTS: Tip? Tip, okay. Did you have conversations with her?
KRUOCH: Sometimes, but not long, just short things. She told me a little bit and
01:14:00tried to help me.ROBERTS: So just a few seconds while you're going through the food line?
KRUOCH: Yeah, she doesn't have time to have a conversation to discuss about
anything, because they won't allow us to know the other people there to have time to talk to each other.ROBERTS: So, this connection was just made through very, very brief moments?
KRUOCH: Yeah, she briefed me to advise you, to tell you something, and just
always said that you don't have to say anything, just stay quiet.ROBERTS: Part of your story, I think, one of the most significant parts and has
formed for the rest of your life is your conversion. It sounds like you've devoted a lot of your life afterwards to help people like you, especially with 01:15:00the missions. Was there--while you were at the farm under Communist control, was there a consideration of God in all that? Before you had been a Buddhist and raised Buddhist. How had that entered into how you dealt with the labor and the four years you spent there?KRUOCH: At that time, you feel like that it means that no God helped us because
we feel hopeless. Everybody feel hopeless at that time. We still shout out [for] help anyway--any god, anything [that] can help us, but we feel hopeless anyway. 01:16:00We're just waiting [for] the day that we die. We don't know when. Some of them they want to die, but it won't happen, because how [do you] do that? We just tried to live--what else?--you know, the end of our life. We tried to survive with that.ROBERTS: I think I've got one more. These were kind of out of order. But you
talked about before when you were on your family's farm and the way--I think I'm getting this right--the Khmer Rouge would sell--or the Communists were selling knives? Was that right?KRUOCH: Yeah, the Communist people, they expressed themselves so nice to--
01:17:00ROBERTS: They were nice.
KRUOCH: Yeah, very nice to the people. They won't hurt them, they won't do any
bad thing to them, they treat them very well, they're protecting them, they said that they're going to [protect], nobody's going to steal anything from you. If you know that--you know, our people steal something from you, even one fruit from your tree there [is] lost, you know that somebody take it and not telling you, let us know, because they are very strict.ROBERTS: So when you were in Phnom Penh and waiting for those same Communists to
come to the city, what were the expectations like in the city about the Communists coming?KRUOCH: The expectation at that time, the people [was] so excited, they will
have peace, even myself. At that time we [were] excited and we [were] greeting 01:18:00those Communist troops. It [has ended], and we didn't feel anything because we said, now the war has [ended]. It's over. The war is over. We have peace. That's what we [felt] like.ROBERTS: Which wasn't the case.
KRUOCH: Yeah.
ROBERTS: All right, I think that's all for me.
SLOAN: I did wonder, your friends that you escaped with, and you each went your
different way, did you ever reunite or know what happened to your friends?KRUOCH: We completely separated from each other. We didn't meet each other
again. Maybe they got killed or whatever, we didn't know. I didn't meet any friend anymore.SLOAN: I want to make sure there's nothing we missed. I've asked you a bunch of
questions, and you've been great to answer my questions, but is there anything we should include that we didn't get a chance to talk about yet? 01:19:00KRUOCH: No, I have nothing else. A lot of things I cannot share, because during
almost four years in the Communist [work camp], that hardship in my life, I live with them there. We [were] working as a slave, [there was] no food, and twelve hours a day or more. I don't know how I can survive. I still don't understand [how] that happened, that the world did not know what happened. I don't know. At that time, we thought that America was involved with it and even China [was] 01:20:00involved with it, and the big, big country. Why nobody helped us? Why they leave us like that when they have power to help us?SLOAN: Did you have feelings about that when you came to America?
KRUOCH: No, I didn't feel like that when I came to America, but maybe the
Communists, they just closed the door. They don't want anybody to know about it. They declared that we have peace, that's what I feel like. That's why nobody knows what happened. Nobody knows that so many people died every day, that's what I feel like. But, right now, I can know that if something happens in different places, the world knows what happened, and they try to help, but before, I didn't know if they know about it. 01:21:00SLOAN: Well, you sharing this helps people continue to know and remember, and be
more aware of what's going on.KRUOCH: Yeah, that's why I feel like that the people do not know everything, and
even big or small countries. When I came here in 1981, they [asked] me, "Where are you coming from?" [I said], "I'm from Cambodia." They didn't even know where Cambodia is. (laughs) I was surprised, that's why I said, "Oh, wow. How [are] they [able] to go bomb them? They don't know where Cambodia is." (laughs) Yeah, they [asked] me, I said, "I come from Cambodia." They said, "Where is Cambodia?" I don't know. (laughs)SLOAN: Now, when you came in '81, who was the sponsor?
01:22:00KRUOCH: The Catholic Charities.
SLOAN: Catholic Charities, and you settled in Houston?
KRUOCH: Yes.
SLOAN: You came to Houston. What sort of support did they give you then?
KRUOCH: It's not much support when I came. They just [gave] me daily food and a
place that I can stay. That time, when I came, [they put us in an old house]. When I got to the house, it was so messy, [we] had to come and clean by ourselves to get a place to lay down. We came at night, and we got a pack of noodles we can cook and eat. Then, we make a place to sleep. The next day, we 01:23:00clean up and everything, and after that we tried to clean the house. We helped them to paint the house, to clean the house, yeah.SLOAN: To make a home.
KRUOCH: To make a home. We had no money, we had no penny at that time, and I had
some letters from my friends in the camp they tried to send to their family or friends, whatever. I don't have money. I don't know where I'm going to mail it to those people. I don't have any money to mail. Yeah, you have to keep.SLOAN: I don't think we mentioned on the recording that you're a pastor, but
you're bivocational, you also work at Refugee Services [Refugee Services of Texas].KRUOCH: I'm bivocational, and I have no salary from the church, so it's just
volunteering to help. Our offering, because we are a small group anyway, is to 01:24:00support the building. That's why I work full time to help my family, but I'm so blessed.SLOAN: What's it like to work in refugee services because of your own
experience? What is that like for you?KRUOCH: I have opportunities to share with other people. They don't feel bad
about it, because I can share my life to them, that I'm worse than what they have right now. Some refugees [are] not so bad, refugees from Iraq or from Afghanistan, or from Europe, or somewhere. It's not worse than what I faced, so I can share with them how my life is run through with those kinds of things. The only thing that's a very hard thing, the people from Africa can face a lot of 01:25:00problems, too. They can compare with starving and those kinds of things. People, I can tell them that it's okay. They are so happy that we run through the hardship, the same thing, and we come here, and we are so blessed. America helped us a lot, that's what I told them. I came here only [with] one [pair of] pants and one shirt. "I don't have anything with me, and now I have everything," I told them.SLOAN: You can give them hope and that's the most important thing, right?
KRUOCH: Yeah. Don't give up. I said, "You know, you're here to start over. "Even
myself," I said, "I'm here to start over my life." Even if we have to go back to 01:26:00school to start over again or in work, we get to build our new life in the new land. We have no choice, but especially we have peace here and freedom.SLOAN: No fear.
KRUOCH: Yeah, that's the main thing.
SLOAN: Well, Pastor Kruoch, I want to thank you for sitting down with us today.
KRUOCH: No problem. You know, anything that I can share more, I will. I've no
problem with it.SLOAN: Thank you.
end of interview