00:00:00SLOAN: All right, this is Stephen Sloan. The date is August 15, 2015. I'm with
Mr. Albert Cheng in his home in Richardson, Texas. Project members Melissa Sloan
and Nathan Roberts are with me as well, as well as Mr. Cheng's friend Mary
Hodge. This is an interview with the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission's
Survivors of Genocide Project. Thank you, Mr. Cheng, for sitting down with us today.
CHENG: You're welcome.
SLOAN: And, for hosting us in your wonderful home. I want to begin, as I said
earlier, by taking you back. None of us are from Cambodia, so I would love for
you to give us a picture, through talking about your family, what life was like
in Cambodia in your early years?
CHENG: Back in the past, Cambodia was so peaceful and [there were] gracious
people. My childhood was so much of family time; we do things as a family.
00:01:00Geography-wise, where I lived, was rice fields and greenish everywhere, palm
trees. I remember is the family related most peaceful to each other, and we do
things together, hold hands and walk as a family. Those were the things that I
remember the most and when tough times come.
SLOAN: Now, you were born in 1950--
CHENG: Fifty-five.
SLOAN: Yes. Some documents later say '59, I think, but you were born in 1955.
CHENG: Yes. That's my actual birth, 1955. After that, things so messed up
because of the war and things.
00:02:00
SLOAN: Now, your father's occupation, can you tell me about what you remember
about your father's job and the work that he did?
CHENG: Back in the French occupation, he's well-educated, and he worked in the
train station. He's in charge of the line that came from Phnom Penh all the way
to Thailand. He was the one who was in charge of that.
SLOAN: A very good job.
CHENG: A very excellent job, yeah.
SLOAN: So, he was trained by the French. He did not do training in France. In
the country, he was trained by the French?
CHENG: He was trained by the French in the country. He also spoke French fluently.
SLOAN: I would expect, with a good job, the family lived fairly well?
CHENG: It is. It is. I remember the childhood where we go to school. I'll just
00:03:00stand there and people will dress me up, as in the uniform, and go to school.
SLOAN: Were there particular subjects that you liked in school?
CHENG: I liked mathematics and also the French language, history.
SLOAN: The history of your country or world history?
CHENG: General world history.
SLOAN: World history? When you would do things for fun, what sort of things
would you do for fun?
CHENG: I very much on the weekend, I would go to hunt. I loved hunting, and
would go to the--just the deep jungle; it is part of my nature. At school I also
played ping pong. I played soccer.
SLOAN: Tell me about hunting in the jungle.
CHENG: We have like ten dogs, at least. Each individual, they have their own. If
00:04:00one is for the rabbits and one is for the birds. We just go through the
mountains and waiting for the signal. When they start barking, we know that they
got something then.
SLOAN: This is you and your friends?
CHENG: Yeah, especially with my uncle. He's a man who pretty much lived out in
the mountains. The village where I lived is also pretty close to the mountains
and rice fields.
SLOAN: Sounds beautiful.
CHENG: It is. It is.
SLOAN: What was your favorite thing to hunt?
CHENG: It'll be the rabbits--wild rabbits and deer, but we don't have anything.
We just have like, one of those bow--
00:05:00
SLOAN: Bow and arrow?
CHENG: Bow and arrows, and I just carried a slingshot with me.
SLOAN: So you had to get close to them?
CHENG: Yes. (laughs)
SLOAN: (laughs) I'm imaging that if you had an option of reading a book or going
into the jungle to hunt, which one would you do?
CHENG: It would be go to hunt. (laughs)
SLOAN: (laughs) Can you tell me a little bit about the landscape, about the
country around your village?
CHENG: It's up, a high land and also the low land. You just can see miles and
miles away--just greenish everywhere, trees everywhere. Big trees, small trees,
and the rice plant, just covered the whole earth.
SLOAN: Most of the kids I guess you went to school with were rice farmers?
CHENG: Yes.
00:06:00
SLOAN: One privilege that I thought was very interesting, that I read about, is
your opportunity to go to the capital.
CHENG: Yes.
SLOAN: Can you tell me about why you had that opportunity and what that was like?
CHENG: The reason is that, out in the village, the school that they have the
highest is only high school. Anything above, they will go to the capital. I
graduated from high school. To continue for college, then I have to go to the capital.
SLOAN: When you were younger, because your father worked for the railroad, you
had an opportunity to visit the city.
CHENG: Yes, I did.
SLOAN: What was it like to go to the city?
CHENG: It shocked [me], because for one thing, my nature, I don't like cities,
but to go to the place--it's big, and people all over the place. It's not my
kind of jungle. It shocked [me]--different sight, different sounds. Instead of
00:07:00hearing birds calling, there was cars all over the place.
SLOAN: You were more comfortable in the jungle.
CHENG: Yes.
SLOAN: What would you do when you went to the city? What sort of things would
you do?
CHENG: I pretty much will go to school and continue to pursue that, because that
was the last word that I also have with my mother, as well, because she was the
one who sent me.
SLOAN: Before you go to college, I know that you were considering what you were
going to do, different options with what you were going to do. I think you
enrolled in military school at one point?
CHENG: Yeah, at one point, because the circumstances of the country itself.
00:08:00
SLOAN: Can you tell me a little bit about that, how circumstances were changing?
CHENG: Yes, because they were calling for [people to go] into the service, at
that point, but my family wouldn't like that. That's another reason they sent me
out. At first, we only hear the sound of the guns and artillery far, far away,
and all of a sudden, these things just started coming. I have no idea concerning
the circumstances of the country itself, so among other teenagers, they were
also talking about it and want to do that [sign up for military service]. It's
enough that my mother have to send me out from there.
SLOAN: Because war was coming.
CHENG: Yeah, war was coming.
SLOAN: When did you become aware of the conflict that was going on in your
00:09:00country? When did the war begin to impact your family?
CHENG: When I was sent away to the capital, and I began to see the casualties.
Begin to see this helicopter constantly in the hospital, and I begin to realize
that this thing is serious.
SLOAN: Now, were there bombings in your area earlier than that?
CHENG: Yeah, yeah. They began to shoot these bazookas. Every once in a while
they keep doing that. Then I began to see the most horrible things. I began to
have my first shock as well. Where I used to live, out in the village, it's all
00:10:00peaceful, and now, I begin to see the human beings, the most horrific of it all.
It's so hard for me to see that.
SLOAN: Yes. Leaving must have been very hard, to go off to college.
CHENG: It is. I couldn't describe, because normally on the National Road, she
can just send me through one of the commercial bus to go through, but we were
not able to do that, because the Khmer Rouge was getting real strong. They
attacked, and they cut the National Road--that no transportation at all. That
was the first time that I got to ride on this old beat up airplane, in order to
00:11:00go to the capital. My mother sent me in the airplane, and that was the first and
the last day that I saw her. You know, very difficult.
SLOAN: She sent you because she cared about you?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: She sent you because the city was--they thought the city would be more safe.
CHENG: She also hoped for--what I heard, encouraging of the education is the
most important to the children, and I hope and dream for that, as well. It still
is very hard for me to be away from the family.
SLOAN: Had you done well in your exams? I know the exams are very important.
CHENG: It is. Yeah, I did, but it's so emotional. It's so messed up. While I was
00:12:00on my way to school and boom! Bomb, right there. So, it's all traumatized and
messed up during the exam, and also family far away. It's not easy at all.
SLOAN: Yeah. This was also your first flight on a plane, I guess.
CHENG: It was the first flight, yeah. It's the first flight. I considered it an
opportunity to be in the air.
SLOAN: You saw your country, you saw where you lived, very differently.
CHENG: Very different, yeah.
SLOAN: Can you tell me what you saw?
CHENG: Down below, there were palm trees everywhere and see from above. That
airplane is also used for transporting the foods and things for the military. I
don't remember having a seat belt at all; I was like holding on to things. It
00:13:00was a very old, old airplane. I couldn't talk to the two gentlemen there. I
don't know the language they were talking about, and they couldn't talk to me as
well. There were some blood stains inside the airplane, but it's a beautiful
sight from above.
SLOAN: Now, where did you live? Tell me about getting to the city and how you
got settled there.
CHENG: My sister, she is a teacher there, and I lived with her.
SLOAN: She teaches what grades?
CHENG: Elementary.
SLOAN: Elementary.
CHENG: Yeah, elementary, and Mary [Mary Hodge] met her. Her name is sister Ty.
SLOAN: So, you settled in there. You started to begin your studies?
CHENG: Yes.
SLOAN: What year did you go to Phnom Penh?
00:14:00
CHENG: That was 1972.
SLOAN: Nineteen seventy-two, okay. I know while you're there, you're wanting to
know what's going on with your family. Were you able to communicate?
CHENG: No, it's very difficult because there was no phone and no mail.
Everything is very difficult because of the war, as well.
SLOAN: Were you getting much information on what was going on with the war?
CHENG: Yes, because there are TV information and newspapers.
SLOAN: The thought that the Communists at some point might take the city, what
were your feelings at that time about that?
CHENG: I couldn't believe that they will take over, [considering] the
00:15:00well-equipped [Cambodian] military, especially supported by the US--and people
are well-equipped. I still couldn't believe it.
SLOAN: What were you studying when you were in college? What were your subjects?
CHENG: Offered there, the subjects are pretty much in general. It's not really
specific at all, until you go to the university.
SLOAN: What were you studying specifically in your university?
CHENG: I was not there yet, so I am pretty much preparing in general subjects.
SLOAN: I see. I know you missed the jungle while you were there in the city.
CHENG: Yes, indeed. I missed it a lot, even right now (laughs). I'm making my
own jungle in the back garden.
SLOAN: (laughs) I would imagine that during that time you were there, you were
00:16:00not traveling outside of the city. You're staying in the city for the most part?
CHENG: Yeah, in the most part, because the [lack of] security and the bombing.
It's just like in the cage.
SLOAN: That only increases over time--the attacks, the bombings. As the
situation in the city got worse, how did that affect your life?
CHENG: It affected very, very bad. I'm out of focus. I'm missing my family
greatly, worried about the future, what's going to happen. Those are the things
that froze me daily.
SLOAN: You want the war to be over?
CHENG: Very much so.
00:17:00
SLOAN: I think of those peaceful years of your childhood. It was very peaceful
in Cambodia.
CHENG: It's very, very peaceful. I remember, if I go from place to place, people
are more welcoming, even though I'm a stranger to them; it's just part of their
culture, their nature. If I just walk past by, they will come to me and ask me
to come on in and join us. Communication-wise that world was so peaceful, and
[people would] relate to each other as their own family. That's why they used
the word bong, which means, "we're one family." I miss that a lot, too.
SLOAN: Yeah. Well, I would imagine that's less so in the city, especially less
so because of the conditions in the city. As far as being able to get food, did
that situation get worse in the city?
00:18:00
CHENG: That also [was] getting worse, because [even though] I [am] steps away
[from] approaching food, the thing that is in my mind, most of the time, [is]
what about if the bomb just exploded? They did, daily. There was also a
[possibility of getting] mixed up with the Khmer Rouge. They dressed just like
us, looked like us, talked like us, [but they would come] on motorbikes and
throw a grenade right in front of us.
SLOAN: Did you have any interactions with the Communists during that time?
CHENG: Very close so, just like, on my way to school, and this bomb [exploded]
right in front of me, and people lost their hands and body exploded.
SLOAN: In 1975, I know things change dramatically. It seems to me, based on what
00:19:00I read, initially, there is a feeling of hope because the war is over, right?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Did you experience that feeling of hope? Maybe there will be peace, now?
CHENG: Yes, I experienced that. As a matter of fact, if you see the movie called
The Killing Fields, people [were] all so mixed up. They saw there [for the]
first time with army uniforms all black, and with this scarf, with AK-47s, when
[the Khmer Rouge] came through. One side celebrates [because] the war is over,
and some wave white flags, to express their welcoming and hope for peace. I was
00:20:00[doing] the same thing. I was in the middle of those people, as well, but at the
same time, I'm trying to make my way to find the family. As a matter of fact,
that hope turned to be the most horrible thing.
SLOAN: The hope that you had in that moment was maybe there's peace now, and I
can go back and be with my family.
CHENG: Yeah, my family, because I miss them so much.
SLOAN: When did you begin to realize that peace wouldn't come?
CHENG: It's a chaos and mixed moment to hold on to that hope. At the same time,
on the other side, I look around, and there's the AK-47 pointing, in order to
control the whole city. They're shooting, that's what the Khmer Rouge did. When
I begin to see those things, it brought me to question that. What's going on
here? The welcoming, the hope, but at the same time they're shooting at us, even
00:21:00at the crowd, so it's all mixed feeling. There's something--the reality is not there.
SLOAN: Of course, the movie you mentioned shows the picture of that evacuation,
the chaos that came with it.
CHENG: Yeah, I remember that since people were so packed, shoulder to shoulder.
Most city folk, they don't really experience that type of thing. They're very
comfortable, convenient, wherever they live, but in a split second the whole
thing turned upside down. Some folk couldn't resist the heat, because there it's
summer time, when they came in. I can just see, one by one, [people] just
collapse. You have no way of helping each other, because millions [were] packed,
00:22:00and the pressure just pushed forward. I, myself, stepped on other body, as well.
It moves so slow--a small street and with millions of people moves so slow. When
we [were] a bit off [from] the capital, into the country, there's another
problem, because the overflow of human beings [cause us] to step out of the
street, in the bottom, along the side, and one by one, took ill. Imagine that I
just stand there among the crowd, and I was alone. At the same time, [I was]
trying to catch [my] breath. I lost my family at that point, because I couldn't
00:23:00make it to my sister. Then children [are] completely [lost], because they have
to do that to gain their control, evacuating.
SLOAN: Yeah, and everyone is going a different direction out of the city. Where
were you when they rounded you up to join this?
CHENG: I was on my way to school, and that's how I split from that point on.
SLOAN: I see.
CHENG: Then on National Road No. 5. The reason is, because National Road No. 5
is on my way to my village, the province where my family lived. I'm trying to
penetrate toward that.
SLOAN: Was it communicated to you what y'all were doing, or why they were doing this?
CHENG: No. The aspect of communicating is with that AK-47 and shooting. That
00:24:00gives us the signal that this is bad. It's not hope. It's not peace. I can't
even look toward eye to eye, like I'm looking at you, because these are the eyes
of evil. It's not friendly. It's not hope.
SLOAN: Don't ask questions, don't look--yeah. One of the things that slowed this
down, this mass evacuation, is the interviews. Were there interview stations
where they were doing interviews?
CHENG: Yeah, it's just part of their trapping to get rid of educated people.
What they did, they have this station there, and then they began to talk into
one of this--what do you call it, microphone?
00:25:00
SLOAN: Like a megaphone?
CHENG: Yeah. They voice it out, saying that if anyone [who is] involved with the
old government, any type of government, we want you back. Line up and register
your name. I was at the end of the line, because they said including students
beginning in the first grade. The line was so long, and the sun [went] down. I
went down to draw the water for my thirst. I saw those people who lined up, they
all [were] tied up along the Mekong River. They just shoot them and throw the
body. Then from that point on, again, I was completely shut off. I don't trust
anyone anymore, even the people around me. I just--it just overwhelmed.
00:26:00
SLOAN: You'd been such a trusting person, so that was very hard. As you said,
where you grew up, you could be very trusting with strangers and people you
didn't know.
CHENG: It is. It's a change in night and day, like that--just in a split second,
All of a sudden, it's even worse, when [you] live after the war. It's even worse.
SLOAN: Yeah, it stays with you. Now, did you speak French?
CHENG: I did, back in the past.
SLOAN: That was something that you didn't want the Khmer Rouge to know.
CHENG: No, no. As a matter of fact, Cambodians also speak [different] dialects.
People will come to me [and] say that the way to survive is you have eyes, but
00:27:00you don't want to see. You have ears, you don't want to hear. You have that
mouthpiece, you don't want to talk, because that's part of the mouthpiece. If I
begin to speak, it sounds like [I am from the] city to them, and I would be a
target for them. They are not going to come around and say, "I will kill you."
No, no. They come and execute you.
SLOAN: You mentioned glasses. If you wore glasses, it could mean you're more educated?
CHENG: Yeah, that [was] part of their thinking. I think, they just want to get
rid [of any educated people], plainly. They want to change the whole society to
be just like them.
SLOAN: As you became aware of the people that they were targeting, you had to
fear for your family even more.
CHENG: Yeah, even more, but fearing [also] so much [for] my own self, because,
00:28:00all of a sudden, this fear just grips me. I couldn't think anything because I
just wake up in the morning [and] fear is there constantly, constantly. The
thing about the Communists is they also spy on us, night and day. They did that
in order to get rid [of] the old society. That's what they called it, what would
be the word they called the 17 April people.
SLOAN: Yeah. How long are you in this evacuation, as far as moving with the
crowd in the evacuation?
00:29:00
CHENG: It's like the whole week. Here's one of the flashbacks: my body [was]
exhausted without food, without water and drinking. I was collapsed by the
sunset; I would just pass out. When the sun rise, I begin to wake up. I start
smelling something. It's horrible, horrible. It turned out to be that two bodies
were tied up right on the top of my head. I'm sitting there--begin to see this
thing. It's like a million of worms just came out from eyeballs. I just sleep
there, all through the night. When I was awake, I try to figure out where am I,
and what will be the next step to go.
SLOAN: I know an opportunity presents itself. You had to be looking for a way to
00:30:00escape, or a way to get away. There are armed guards watching you, but there
were so many people. How did this happen where you had an opportunity to get away?
CHENG: Opportunity will be at nighttime.
SLOAN: I see.
CHENG: Because they, too, have to sleep. I was on a constant move forward,
especially to reach my family. I really want to see them--my mother.
SLOAN: So you slipped off at night?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: You weren't scared of the jungle?
CHENG: No.
SLOAN: I would imagine some of the others that were in the group, [those] that
were from the city, one of the things that kept them there is they were scared.
CHENG: They did. Scary is every minute out of [the city], but at the same time
00:31:00each individual hold on to life.
SLOAN: Can you tell me about when you slipped off and when you got away?
CHENG: That was at nighttime. I begin to pick up the Khmer Rouge's [routine],
when there's the time they stopped patrolling. I begin to watch them. They have
their hammocks. Everywhere they go, they will put the hammocks and rest. I
understand their time. During nighttime, I begin to walk through the night and
look at the moon and the stars, find out [the] direction that I have to go, and
I continue to do that.
SLOAN: Which direction did you want to go?
CHENG: I want to go to my village to find my family. Unfortunately, I couldn't
00:32:00make it there, because people [tell me] that on the way crossing to the other
side, there's minefields everywhere. They said, You don't want to take your
chance, because minefields [are] everywhere during the war, and [unexploded
ordinance]. I can see the bombshells, so I changed my mind and tried to find
another direction. Then, I was captured.
SLOAN: How many days were you on your own traveling? I know it's hard to keep
track of days.
CHENG: Yeah. All I know is sunrise, sunset, sunrise, sunset. I assume almost a
whole month.
SLOAN: Oh, wow. You knew how to survive in the jungle?
CHENG: Yes, I did. I think that was helping me, as well. The nighttime, what I
00:33:00used to go hunt, sleep in the tree, and every aspect of it.
SLOAN: You probably got to eat; you knew how to get food, where you had not
eaten. You did fairly well in the jungle.
CHENG: I did, because I can spot things that I can eat and things that I cannot
eat. Also, there's different vines that I just could cut and suck to wet my
throat, for the liquid.
SLOAN: How did you avoid capture for a month with Khmer Rouge everywhere?
CHENG: I bury myself during the day time. I hide. Then, at nighttime, I begin to
00:34:00come out, even come out to the National Road, because when they evacuate people,
they left the food there. I'll just go in, grab whatever I find, and feed
myself. Then, with the scarf, I will tie up what is left and carry with me, and
bury myself in the woods.
SLOAN: Did you run into people or talk to people during that time?
CHENG: Again, because [of] the overwhelm--and I just don't want to see anybody.
I don't feel comfortable anymore. I just want to bury myself completely away
from anybody.
SLOAN: So you were going around another way, you said, trying to get to your
village when you got captured. Can you tell me that story of how you got captured?
00:35:00
CHENG: I think because there was a time that I don't expect yet. I didn't expect
at that moment, and [I] run into one of them. I was surrounded [by] the Khmer
Rouge, and I know that [is] the end of it. I can't run left, right, backward,
forward. It was all surrounded by them. They scream and yell, and it just shut
me off. By the morning, what I remember, is I was blindfolded on this motorbike.
I knew that I don't have to feel it anymore, at that moment, beside the bumping
road along the way, because my life could end at any time, because I'm captured.
00:36:00
SLOAN: They took you to a work camp?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Describe the work camp they took you to.
CHENG: When I got there, all I see is people out in the rice field. I saw they
were in a small group. In the small group, there was a guy with a black uniform,
with AK-47. Daily, my hope is that I could just, perhaps, work with one of them,
stay alive, and not die. That's my hope.
SLOAN: Give us an understanding of what life in the camp was like.
CHENG: One word I have to say, is that it's hell on earth, because they turn
00:37:00human beings to be--it's indescribable--all starving. Anything cross their
nerve, we will [be] beat up by AK-47 in the rice field--even left us there. What
they would throw to us is like a--I'm going to try to translate from that
language. If they keep us, it means nothing to them, but on the other hand, it
is better for them to chop our body in pieces into the rice field to make the
rice plant grow. Those are the kinds of things that I couldn't grab hold of, and
they did just that. I saw it all, the starving, the beating, the executing.
00:38:00
SLOAN: It was all day out in the sun. You were working in the rice fields. What
other work did they have you doing?
CHENG: All day--they used us to make a water tunnel to use the water to other
areas. Also, [they] sent us to the jungle, to the mountain, to chop off the
trees to grow more. During corn season, they will use us there. Any places that
they want us to go, they sent us there.
SLOAN: Didn't you fish? Didn't you do some fishing one time, too, to get them fish?
00:39:00
CHENG: Yeah, there was a time they used me in a different--it's called the
fishing team. I enjoyed that moment very much, because I got to feed myself with
the fish.
SLOAN: Oh, you got some of the fish?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: But, normally, whatever you raised you didn't get to get any of.
CHENG: No, it's [a] more social system. Even if one walks on the rice field, if
you just see a little crab crawling, and you grab it, eat it, they kill you
right there, because they will say that you are not [having] the mindset of
Communist or social kind of thing. Anything is no longer [belonging] to you. It
belongs to what they call Angkor.
SLOAN: They're trying to revive that old, ancient--yeah.
CHENG: Revive that so that [there's] no personal belongings anymore. Anything
00:40:00related to your life, it belongs to Angkor, so catching [one crab for yourself
to eat] expresses that personal thing. First, they will lay out their rule,
number one, number two, all the way to number twelve. Then, you'll come to
understand that you're dead.
SLOAN: Yeah. Do you remember some of the rules?
CHENG: Especially, there's no belongings. Another rule, no stealing. It seemed
to be a good rule, but the thing is, they try to pinpoint [anyone breaking the
rules] to gain their own opportunity to kill us. That's what it is.
SLOAN: They didn't keep you from stealing and doing the things that they were
doing. I know there's the work part, but there's also the propaganda education.
00:41:00Tell me about meetings.
CHENG: Yeah. Oh. To just use that word meeting, I hate it.
SLOAN: Sorry!
CHENG: Your body [is] exhausted. [Them] doing that is just part of killing us,
physically and mentally. You work so hard, yet at nighttime, they call us to
come and have a meeting to brainwash us. They will say like, Were you satisfied
[with] the food you're eating today? Then they yell at you. You have to say yes
and raise your hand. Others who sit around me, because the body [is] exhausted,
they couldn't respond with anything. All I heard is the smash with AK-47, [so
you] jump up, and you begin to just say yes. You have enough to eat today? Yes.
00:42:00Then, they begin to just tell their Angkor theory, what it's all about. I
couldn't grab hold. I don't have a portion of my brain to understand all of
this. As a matter of fact, I'm afraid to say anything. But, I'm glad that I
[can] even sit here and [tell] you, with this expressing of my thoughts and my
feelings, which I couldn't do at all in the past.
SLOAN: You couldn't talk to each other?
CHENG: No, there's a reason to that. For one, is that my dialect--when I talk,
because we were in a family where we appropriately speak, relate to each other,
00:43:00brother, sister, in the language. See, those things is completely different.
Another thing is that it's so hard to trust each other, because the one whom you
think you trust, they can just go around to make a report about me to just have
a spoon of rice because [of] their own starving, their own [hunger]. They could
just say that I'm such and such, and then they got me killed. Then, the reward
for the person would be a spoon of rice.
SLOAN: Were there any other opportunities to escape?
CHENG: The only opportunity is that when [there was] another war coming, the
invasion of the North Vietnamese. From 1975 to '77, all we did is in the camp,
00:44:00this horrible, hard work to death, executing, killing, spying, those things.
When I heard the bombing again, I began to wish there's another war. Hopefully,
I can just get out. Sure enough, the North Vietnamese came in, and the Khmer
Rouge ran for their life and left me unguarded. Still, I couldn't think of
anything, because physically, it's malnutrition and all of that, but then
somehow it's like, it could be another thing, it could be another thing.
SLOAN: So from '75 to '77, you didn't hear any war. You didn't hear any
00:45:00fighting. When did the war pick up again?
CHENG: It was 1978.
SLOAN: I see.
CHENG: Yeah, but 1975 to '77, all I heard is the cry of the ones who [were]
executed. Then '78, I begin to hear another bomb coming. Sure enough, a
different uniform came, and they don't even talk our language. This is instead
of a black uniform, it turned out to be a more dark green uniform. I begin to
realize that, "Oh, where did they come from?" Later on, I got the information
that it was the North Vietnamese.
SLOAN: Traditionally, as far as your understanding of the Vietnamese, have you
had any interactions with Vietnamese before?
CHENG: I saw from far away. Yeah. I know there's a difference. Then, I begin to
00:46:00run, to escape at that point on. Where I used the word run, there's no such
thing as running. I would just crawl and walk as I can. I remember, I touched my
whole body. It's all bones and my eyes [were] sunken. If I focused or looked
down in certain times, it fell. I had to plug it back in. Then, I begin to just
walk into the jungle, again. The escape began again.
SLOAN: The time when you were in the camp, it would seem to me that at some
point it would be hard to go on. You would wish to not go on anymore.
CHENG: Yes, I gave up.
00:47:00
SLOAN: Yeah. Did you feel that way?
CHENG: Yeah. I think when [the] body is exhausted, and the pain and suffering is
so much, it is better to just--life is no more, because it's just way too much
beyond humans to take that. Plus, the emotional thing is that voice of the
dying, constantly and daily. The only thing that's keeping me going, catching my
own breath, is that I want to see my family--my mother.
SLOAN: I know when you escaped the second time, there was a group. It wasn't
just you by yourself. How did that happen? You all just started heading one direction?
00:48:00
CHENG: The chaos, of course. At the moment, you know you've being locked in for
so long. What inspires you, is you have a freedom to move forward. That is
inspiring each one of us. It's like, am I free? That freedom moment is a moment
that you couldn't understand yet, but each individual wants to just get away, to
just run. Even though we don't communicate, don't use the language to
communicate, but looking to each other, you can express approach to the heart
00:49:00that you can trust. Even though you can't talk--the body language. Sure enough,
we come down to the point that it's our time to go. Now, when I was already in
the place which I didn't know where to go, but I understand [from] when I used
to be in the jungle. During the nighttime, again, I begin to look at the moon
and the stars, and just try to go west, hopefully to the free world, which is in
Thailand. That's when I began.
SLOAN: Yeah. Now, a few things in the camp, you injured yourself. Didn't you
injure yourself in the camp?
CHENG: I was just having a flashback. I want to tell you about that, too.
SLOAN: Please, yeah.
CHENG: Yeah, I did. I didn't remember how that happened, but I was completely
00:50:00out. It's like life is no more in me, and every time I breathe my body seemed to
revive, and I catch my breath. There was a group of the Khmer Rouge walking
along. I heard [them say], "There's a dead one still alive here. We'll, [teach]
him." What they did, and later on I come to understand, I think what they did,
they have a bucket, and they dump like a pound of salt in the bucket. They
stirred it up and they poked hole, and then they let the salt water flow. Then,
they plug the hose right in my bottom. I just feel, at that moment, it's like my
belly [was growing] bigger and bigger. I have no strength whatsoever. [I] just
00:51:00sense that something is moving inside my body. Somehow, because of the
[embarrassment] that I'm feeling, I was just--I don't know where the strength
came from. I stand up, and I ran as fast as I could, and bare myself in the
bushes. I heard right behind me, they were laughing, laughing. "Here goes the
pig! Here goes the pig!" Then I release those things and collapse there. Later
on, somehow it revived me. I crawled into one of the large ponds there [to] wash
myself, drink the water. By the time they fed us, I just put a spoon of rice to
touch my lip, and all of a sudden, I gained my strength.
SLOAN: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Did you injure your back as well?
00:52:00
CHENG: Oh, my back is horrible.
SLOAN: How did you injure your back?
CHENG: Daily, we will carry these hundred pounds of rice and load it up in this
Chinese military truck. It's said that Cambodia is the country [that] produces
[the most] rice, and yet have no rice to eat. It just doesn't make sense. I come
to understand that the Khmer Rouge, they must've had some kind of deal during
the war with China, and all those tons of rice [were] transported out, and
they're starving their own people.
SLOAN: I'm thinking, a lot of the men that you were working with were rice
farmers growing up, but you weren't. You weren't. This is very different work
00:53:00for you.
CHENG: It is. What I remember, [is] a boy who used to just stand there and
someone dressed me up and go to school, and there I was, with all those
hardships. That's what messed up all my spine, my body, because I tried to be
one of them. That's the only way to survive. I had to become one of them, and I did.
SLOAN: Now, as you were escaping, were you able to grab anything from the camp
to help you?
CHENG: No, what I grabbed is myself, (laughs) because again, it's like your life
is under threat.
SLOAN: I thought you were able to get a knife? Were you able to get a knife?
CHENG: Yes, I did. It's because of that knife, I survived along the way in the
jungle. I need that to go through the jungle. But, you know, to be able to be
00:54:00right in the jungle again--it's like, there's my home.
SLOAN: Yeah. That gave you hope, just being in the jungle, again.
CHENG: Yeah, it gave me hope, even though I don't understand it all, but--you
recall Tarzan? Can't live without the jungle, and here I was like my jungle is
my freedom.
SLOAN: You were also responsible for others now, right? You're trying to help.
CHENG: Yes, because of that jungle experience, it turned out to be [that] I'm
the one who's leading them. [We're able to] survive catching black cobras along
the way--some monkey, because I'm sensitive to those things. All of a sudden,
I'm alive. At the same time, look at the stars and moving forward and yet
00:55:00unknown. Any circumstance could happen, but I enjoy the freedom, being in the
jungle. It turned out to be that I'm the one who knew a direction, knew what
would be the next step to move forward. My senses come alive again. If I could
just touch the tree, I can know right away a direction of west and east. You
know, the bark [of the] tree [absorbs] the heat, and those are the kind of
things that just came to me. If the wind blows in a certain direction, then I
pick up things, even their patrolling. I don't know where that comes from. It's
just in me. I begin to keep moving forward. It's happening so much that, I don't
00:56:00understand yet, but beyond our own life here, there is another unseen life all
around. When my body was exhausted, I remember the voice spoke clearly to me,
"Get up and leave now." I turned around, like who is it? So, that's another life
that I didn't understand.
SLOAN: You learn later about that.
CHENG: Even though in the midst of hell and evil, there is some high being
somewhere. I don't know how to communicate, but they are the one who communicate
toward me. Some of the jungle [was] pitch black. Even the sun rays couldn't penetrate.
SLOAN: Yeah, a very thick canopy above, right? This is why you're holding on to
the tree, because you can't see the sun.
00:57:00
CHENG: Yeah, there's something that I saw beyond my own physical eyes. It's like
another person. This bright light, carry on, direct me. Things like that, I
didn't know. What naturally came to me is like, "Oh, the ancestors--the spirit
of ancestors, that's [the] culture of our past." I kept on thinking that it
could be. Those are the kind of things [that] now expand my hope when I see
that. They continue to expand my hope, and yet, I really want to be in touch,
but I'm not able to.
SLOAN: Was your group able to stay together?
CHENG: Oh, very much so, because every step of the way, we have to follow each
00:58:00other's steps. If you miss a step, it's very dangerous. Sure enough, when we got
close to the border, there's a mine. I still remember how we communicate to each
other. There's a snail at night [that] begins to call each other. I can pick
that. I make, it's like a little plastic wrapper, and I wrap with this rubber
band. I could just pull it and make a sound to communicate with each other. I
pull it two times, and when [I pull it] three times, [it means that] we ran into
this patrolling line. We keep communicate [with each other] like that, making an
animal sound. I remember that. That's [what] I learned from the jungle. When
00:59:00we're close to the border, I knew right away that [it's a] dangerous area, but
it's better for us to be free, to move forward. There's hope on the other side,
even though we know that we can't go backward.
SLOAN: You said you lived off monkey and cobra and other things. Were these
things that you'd hunted before?
CHENG: Yes, I've ran into it. I was used to it. It's just another fun thing.
Monkey is great [at] climbing the tree, but guess what, when they fall asleep,
they fall off the tree, too. They hit the ground, and all of a sudden, you can
hear the echoing of the jungle (makes monkey sound), the whole jungle. Then I
01:00:00would just like (pantomimes picking up a monkey), yeah, the monkey fell off the
tree. When there were too many of them, sometimes I would just walk underneath
and grab one of them.
SLOAN: I would imagine, even though you were still in the jungle, you were
getting your strength back, because you're eating better.
CHENG: Yeah, I'm getting my strength back. My conscience is [beginning] to [be]
alive. I begin to have [the ability to] somewhat think straight.
SLOAN: This experience of escaping earlier and avoiding the Khmer Rouge probably
became useful this second time as you were trying to avoid them. What were some
ways, besides communicating, that you would use to avoid capture?
01:01:00
CHENG: At least I had my strength. I [did] not in the past, during my captivity.
I know that I can run as fast as I could. There would be a way for me to move
forward. It's like, I have all my strength to sharpen my thinking, and I'm free
now. I'm free, and yet I'm in the jungle. It's like my own backyard, my home.
Who's going to catch me? Those are the kind of things. I think that having
strength back is somewhat [comforting] me. I think like, I can do better now.
SLOAN: When could you tell that you were getting near the border?
CHENG: A long walk--the different sights, different scents, and different
things. [This body's amazing sensitivities], you know, sound, sight, touch, and
01:02:00my being. Even when the wind blows, I can pick up different scents--those kind
of things. I didn't know where that came from--the instinct. I begin to realize
and know that I'm tapped into something [that] is very close. I am very
sensitive with that. I know that, on the other side of [the Cambodian border],
the patrolling is no longer there, so we lost those sounds, as well. Then, the
different view of the trees and landscapes--those things. I put it together that
01:03:00I think we are in a different land now, and we approach [the Thai border].
SLOAN: Can you relate when you were able to find a camp or some help?
CHENG: No. It's still unknown, it's still unknown. But, the only thing is, at
nighttime, I'm a good climber. That's how I direct myself. I climb to the top of
a tree, and I saw this bright light somewhere. Excuse me (coughs). I know that
we're [in] a different place.
SLOAN: You had seen no lights for a long time.
CHENG: All I see is darkness, but this is too bright, still I didn't know. All
[that is] in my mind is that [it's a] different place, and I'm heading toward that.
01:04:00
SLOAN: You don't know who it is, so there's some risk in going toward it, right?
CHENG: Yeah. It's like a little bug sees the light and just goes to it, but at
the same time, unknown. Life is still frightening.
SLOAN: What happened to your group as you approached the camp?
CHENG: When we get closer and closer, I know the intense somehow oppress my
heart. We have no way [to] sit down and think, because we're on the move
constantly. We just know that whatever happens, happens. Then one of us stepped
01:05:00on a mine. It just exploded, and that's the chaos [beginning] all over again.
The thing is, when the mine starts to ignite, it sends them a signal, and they
start shooting, too.
SLOAN: This is the Thai soldiers that were shooting or the Khmer Rouge on the
border that they were shooting?
CHENG: In all directions.
SLOAN: Yeah.
CHENG: Yeah. They [are] all alert. [Stepping on the landmine,] sent them a
signal that there's something at the front line.
SLOAN: Did you go back toward the jungle or did you keep going towards the light?
CHENG: Just keep toward the light, yeah. All of a sudden, they begin shooting. I
found out that, "Oh, I see the tracer bullets. It's just all over." It's like,
"Oh, we became a target to all of them, now." I picked up the sound of a
01:06:00different language, and I come to realize we're in the border. Later on, I
learned that it was the Thai Green Beret, [they're] just right there. Some of
them still slept, because they're not [used] to the war, and I just crawl,
passing by.
SLOAN: So y'all are down on your stomachs crawling very slowly toward the light?
CHENG: Yeah. The voice I heard, "I'm hit! Help!" But--
SLOAN: You have to keep going.
CHENG: Got to keep going.
SLOAN: Yeah. How were you received at the camp, when you were finally able to
get to the camp?
CHENG: I remember there was a truck [that] came along with a little red cross. I
01:07:00didn't know what it is, but they are also another different people
again--different faces. They just drove to me, pick up my body, toss it in the
truck, and they drove as fast as they can to the headquarters. At the same time,
Thai Green Beret, followed till they secured us. I was [inside the back of] the
truck, and I remember there was a different face--different language that was
spoken. In my mind, I'm in another place, now, but at the same time, the
frightening fear, constantly. Later on, I realized that is the refugee camp,
01:08:00called the United Nations camp. It took me a while to really--I have to tell
you, this. I keep on slapping myself most of the time, because I'm sitting, but
is it really me? [There's] so much [confusion], fear, and frightening. I slapped
my own face--like me, me, it's me. Because, it's like emotional and your own
being is torn so much in a million pieces of fear, frightening, death. Those
things, they will haunt me daily, so deep. I mean, the thing I remember, I keep
01:09:00slapping myself. It's me.
SLOAN: They took you to the headquarters, and then did they interview you? Did
they assume you were Khmer Rouge?
CHENG: No. I try to pick [decide] if I remember anything at all. I lost my mind.
I couldn't think of anything, I mean the shock after shock after shock, but
somehow I feel like there's no machine gun in these people. I don't think
they're going to kill me. But again, after you're locked up in darkness for so
long, and here's another shock. It's like a different world, so I had to slap
01:10:00myself, a lot, that I'm okay. I think these people are okay. I had to tell you
that that was the first time I began to see the white folk. I'd never seen them
before. This is the first time, but my life is still frightening, very frightening.
SLOAN: Very confusing.
CHENG: Confused--I don't know what is right, what is wrong. What am I doing
here? In my mind is running--just keep running. Now, I'm captured again. Later
on, they have like a number or something--write the number, as I remember. That
was the first time that I begin to see someone take a picture of me. Then, I
01:11:00began to collect and think, try to make sense out of all of this. I forgot who I
am. They asked, "What is your name?" What is my name? Those things are so lost.
It's like, anything don't make sense to me. It's like a wild kind of--I want to
use the word human, but still it's not human. What I've seen, what I've lived
through, all of that--who am I? What is my name? I couldn't say.
SLOAN: So that came back to you in just bits and pieces?
CHENG: Yeah, take a long process. Especially, to know that no one's going to
kill me, and what's around me. There's no machine gun, and no one speaks in any
01:12:00high tones, screaming and yelling, because I'm very sensitive toward that. The
effect of the sound just tore me into pieces. They approached me in a way that I
think they understand who I am at that moment.
SLOAN: Were you able to rest? Get some food?
CHENG: Yeah, somewhat, but still the constant nightmare and those things. Whew!
Took a long time, a long time.
SLOAN: This may be a hard question to answer, but when it would come back to
you, would you think of being in the camp? What were the things that would come
back to you in nightmares or dreams about it?
01:13:00
CHENG: The only thing is, I don't know what to think. [When] those things got
control of me, I'm in a different place. What I remember, I was weeping,
weeping, shaking, trembling, and I don't understand. I couldn't understand it.
It just overpowered my own being--lost.
SLOAN: I know one thing that you probably wanted to do quickly when you had the
opportunity was find out about your family. You had this long experience of not
knowing what's happened, what's going on with your family.
CHENG: Well, talking about traumatizing, being lonely, I experienced
that--completely lonely. When things [come together a little bit] once again, I
missed my mom and missed my family greatly. I miss them badly, and yet I have no
01:14:00way to know them. At the same time, I lived inside a cage with barbed wire all
around. I couldn't understand how I crawled into the barbed wire. How did I make
that? Because, when I was well fed in the camp, and then when I walked back to
pick up the track that I came in, it's all barbed wire. The Green Berets [are]
out there, and what was happening at that moment, and here I am in the United
Nations camp.
SLOAN: How long were you in the camp, the refugee camp?
CHENG: How long--still I didn't know, because all I know is sunrise,
sunset--Monday, Tuesday, I don't know. I don't know, but it's not that long. At
that moment, it's like, the free choice of each individual, that they just grab
01:15:00refugees all around the world, and sponsor to come out. It happened that I got
to be one of them to be picked up.
SLOAN: I know you go through an interview process for that.
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Can you tell me about that?
CHENG: I'm sure they gave me all the details of what it's like to be in Texas,
the history of Texas, but I only grab hold what I can, because again, I'm still
not me. Again, I'm back to years and dates--I'm lost. Most of the time, when I
see [the interviewers], I mostly would just sit there and smile at them. I
remember, the translating of them, and then there will be the date. I remember,
01:16:00they put me in the seat. I think they were trying to teach me [that] in the
airplane there will be a seat that you can just buckle yourself up. They did
that many times. I just sit there, but I have no clue what's going to happen
next. Then, I was loaded up into the truck. Here is the second time that I got
to fly again. In this huge airplane I got to the unknown, again, in the same way.
SLOAN: Yeah, same way as your flight before into the unknown.
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Were there other countries? Why the United States? Was the United States
the one that had sponsors to receive people?
CHENG: No, it's all around the world. To this day I come to realize, France is
the major country, and also New Zealand, Australia. It's all around the world.
01:17:00
SLOAN: So how did it end up being the United States--that you came here?
CHENG: There's a group, I think it's a Christian group, if I still remember.
They're the ones who sponsored me.
SLOAN: Is it Catholic Charities? No?
CHENG: I can't remember, yeah. I try to--what is the word they use? I still
didn't get it.
SLOAN: So they sponsored you to come to the United States. That was in what year?
CHENG: Nineteen eighty.
SLOAN: Nineteen eighty. Okay. You came to Dallas?
CHENG: I first stopped at California. There's like a building, a camp, there.
01:18:00They fed us. That was the first time I got to wear a jacket, I still remember.
It's like, you came from a tropical [climate], why do I need this jacket? I
didn't understand at all. Then, when we walked into the airport, I realized that
I do need a jacket.
SLOAN: Air-conditioning, yeah.
CHENG: Yeah, air-conditioning and plus the cold outside. It's still unknown.
SLOAN: You stayed in California for--
CHENG: I don't know how long.
SLOAN: Not very long?
CHENG: Not very long, and then I came to Houston.
SLOAN: Houston?
CHENG: Yeah. Then, there was the building where I used to live. I think mostly
in government--to live there for a while, for like several years, I think. Then,
01:19:00I heard there were Cambodians who lived here in Dallas. That's how I got here.
SLOAN: So, you came to Dallas.
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Were you able to get information on your family in Cambodia?
CHENG: Still none, because the country was not open internationally yet. There
was no communication, but I wouldn't stop writing my mail--you know, keep
writing. One day, I got the mail back. I was shocked that they have this kind of
[communication] to the world, in the mail. They mentioned that Cambodia is open.
01:20:00About the family, they don't know, but at least I know that the country is open
now to [the] international [community]. From that point on, I keep on writing,
even though there was no answer. The system out there in Cambodia concerning
mails and addresses and things--no. [I'm] still hoping that they're still alive.
It's so important. It was way too long. I couldn't handle all this
emotional--the loneliness, the family, the culture shocks, and all that.
Nineteen ninety-seven, I bought a ticket to go. I was not ready to go because [I
01:21:00was] traumatized--the flashbacks, those were still--
SLOAN: Yeah, still with you.
CHENG: It's still with me. Then, when the airplane was circulating before
landing--Pochentong Airport, the name of it--I was trembling. All I see is--it's
all over, again. Even though I live here, but when I went back it's like, oh my
goodness, all over, again. What's going to happen when I walk away from the
airplane? Those things had just blocked me. It's fearful [to] walk out. Later
on, [I] go to my village. [I] get one of those little cars, pay them to go
there, to seek for information, try to ask for the family. But, I still feel
01:22:00very fearful, because the Cheng family, that last name, it's life and death to me.
The one thing about the Communists, they said that if you want to really get rid
of the whole family, you don't just come trim the grass, you have to pull the
root. Anything related, kill them all. So, to seek the information for the last
name of the Cheng family, it's so hard. If I released it, am I going to be safe?
I'm just collecting the information as I can, go from place to place, and ask
for a name. I run into one person. They knew the past of my older sister. She
would point [me] toward that direction. When I run there, all I see is this hut
01:23:00grass home full of skeletons that they collect and throw in there. I don't have
[any] feeling at that moment. At the same time, those flashbacks--constantly. I
hope that they live, but at the same time, there's no hope.
Before the sunset, I made my way to the capital, as soon as I can. On the same
path, there was a young man standing there. I just stand there and looked to
him, and he looked to me. I couldn't--he said, "Is that really you?" (crying) He
was my brother. We just run to each other. That was the moment. He's still
01:24:00alive. We just hugged each other. "You're still alive. It's really you. It's
really you." Yeah. From that point on, we tried not to share too much about the
information, because it's so hard. I left him when he was a little boy, and he's
a grown man. Later on, we tried to find more about it. My older sister--when
they execute her. (crying) They blindfold her. They ask her to dig her own
01:25:00grave. He said, "Before they execute her, she just fell into the grave. She was
already passed out." I couldn't take it anymore. But, at least I found him. We
found each other.
Later, down the road, we went back. Mary [Mary Hodge] went with us. It turned
out to be he is a physician, doctor. [That's] how he lived through that. We went
back to do a medical clinic and help people in the village.
01:26:00
SLOAN: What has that been like to be able to go back and help?
CHENG: It was a release. It was so much a release. It's a different kind of life
that I--it's life all over again. Help each individual, freely help anybody.
It's helping me, too, not just helping them. It's helping to do that, and we
enjoy it so much.
SLOAN: Were you able to find some of your other siblings?
CHENG: Yeah.
SLOAN: Your sister?
CHENG: My sister [Ty], the one who was a former teacher there, she still lives
burying herself [in] her own recluse home. She shut herself completely off. She
01:27:00too still has to live through those kinds of frightening and fear. Found her. I
think she's seventy something now.
SLOAN: Something that I know becomes very important in your life is your faith.
I know that's what part of what drives you to go back and help. Can you tell me
a little bit about that?
CHENG: Without that faith, I won't be what I am. I won't be as calm as I am
today, because that faith is beyond a religious thing. It's like another person
is in me. When I have all those flashbacks, he's with me. He gently approached
me, again, to go back. It's like I experienced in the past. It was the same
01:28:00person, without the body. That was him. He's even shown me, if I lay down in my
bed, instead of [being] traumatized, instead of nightmares, it was him [who]
comforts me most of the time. I come to understand that in the middle of evil,
there are good things in that person. It's in that person. As he holds me in
such a way, so I, myself, hold him preciously to me. The reality of it all--even
01:29:00though without the body, but it's alive. Remember what I said. There's life in
front of us at this moment, but there's life tapped into the spiritual thing.
That's what I long to live in that hope. The reality of Jesus himself, that is
real. That is real to me.
I don't know anything about the Bible. If you ask me, What is the Bible? I mean,
what is the Bible? I don't know. You have to understand, I came from a different
environment, culture, some faith. The thing is, when I begin to read--Mary
01:30:00[Hodge] has been helping me so much with my broken English. The more that I
read, I can't even live without reading it. Life, it begins. It just
revives--more than just reading. There will be a time that I read, and I [have]
tears and I weep. At the same time, I'll praise him--it just--it's not me. All
of a sudden, I turn around, again. I slap myself, again. Is that me? I just know
that there's another person who draws me into this thing called the Bible.
That's helping me so much, so much. If anything, as human beings, we go up and
down, up and down. What I do, I go to the Word; I just read. The more that I
read, it's like heaven is on earth to me.
01:31:00
SLOAN: Well, I want to make sure our project team has the opportunity to ask
some questions, if they have some questions. Nathan, do you have any questions
for him?
ROBERTS: Yeah, I've got a couple of questions. Thank you for letting us into
your home again, this has been a very powerful and moving interview. I guess one
of the questions that we ask is what do you want the people who see this video,
see your interview, and hear about your experiences, what do you want them to know?
CHENG: Honestly, to know god--the miracle of God, the reality of it all, because
like Lazarus, I've been there. I was dead. There was no hope. How could one
01:32:00really face it all--traumatized, executing, killing, all those things, even [to]
the point of death without food, while I'm catching my own breath. How could one
[come] out of it without god? Even though, in the midst of evil, there is God,
even though I didn't know him at all. He extends his grace with that hope to
hold on and to live forward. Also, I want people to know beyond our own
understanding, even though circumstance is death, but there's hope. There is
01:33:00somehow a way [that] will bring us through for another day. Never give up. Like
me, I was [fallen] flat, my body completely lost. But, I never give up on
catching my own breath. Breathe! As a matter of fact, I live by that breath. I
breathe as much as I could. I'd breathe and I'd breathe and pointing on myself,
I will keep on breathing, so don't ever give up, ever.
ROBERTS: I've got a couple more questions. Tell us about your scarf.
CHENG: I'm sorry?
ROBERTS: Your scarf? I know that you mentioned it in the book, if you could tell
us about the scarf.
CHENG: It's part of their nature, the culture. Also, it's part of me. Everywhere
01:34:00I go, I survive, I live by the scarves, as well. When there's dirty, completely
dirty water, I would fold [it] up to use as filtration to just sip the water
through. Also, you know, I can put the food with it, and I also can cover myself
during the sun. It's so many [uses] for the scarf. That's what most of the
farmers use. If you go out to the farmer there will be the scarf--not just
hanging there for nothing. It's very useful for so many things. I can also tie
it around my foot and climb a tree. It's does so many things.
MELISSA SLOAN: What is the significance for you wearing it now?
01:35:00
CHENG: Wear it now, to live to those--to memorialize the farmer, and also, me as
living in the jungle. I just can't live without it.
MELISSA SLOAN: It's a reminder?
CHENG: To remind, yeah, and the touch of it.
MELISSA SLOAN: Well, I wanted to ask about the scarf as well, but you mention in
your book that image of the crane. At one point, you saw the crane, and it
seemed like freedom to you.
CHENG: Yes. Thank you. As a matter of fact, they all left me. The reason for
that is because I was stuck in the mud. I have no strength to move forward. When
the Communists used to hit a drum, it's time for us to leave the field, to go to
01:36:00be fed. I couldn't, because the mud is so deep, I lost my strength. While I was
stuck in the mud, I know that, you know, what has come to my mind is that my
body will become fertilizing to the rice field--that's what they did. All of a
sudden, this crane just flew from nowhere, slapping the wings, coming along.
When I looked at the crane, all of a sudden, something stirs inside of me. I
wish, if I could just have two wings, just like the crane. Then, all of a
sudden, the crane becomes me. It's like, I'm flying now. It's me flying. I
become just like the crane. All of a sudden, I'm no longer me at that moment.
It's like this incredible hope with the crane, and by the time I knew it, my
foot is released from the mud and I start walking. It's like, the crane of hope.
01:37:00It's something like that. It's just part of the miracle coming to [me in] pieces
that I didn't understand at all. I still don't understand it, but things like
that [are] still happening.
MELISSA SLOAN: Were there other moments like that where you were going to give
up and something happened to give you hope outside of yourself?
CHENG: Yeah. Let me say this. Under the influence of loneliness, [being]
traumatized, nightmares, constant bad dreams [about] the Khmer Rouge with AK-47
coming after me, and all of that, at the end of it, it's like, I don't want to
live. Another [feeling that] comes to me is this thing called [being] suicidal.
It's like, you know, Hi, how are you? I'm fine. Really? Really? You go to sleep
01:38:00at night, lay down, and this thing is killing me, eating me alive. That feeling
came so strong. It's like there's no other way. The only way is to end this
life. There's no more hope, no nothing. That's when another person came to me,
the reality of him shows up, perfect timing. It's in my dream. The whole point
is completely changing. When I met him, he met me, and at that moment he brought
me back all the way from the beginning of my escape. Even [when I was] stuck in
the mud and all of that, it was him all along, I just didn't know. Then, things
begin to make sense. Again, to live this very life, when there are moments that
I have that up and down, I can just sit there, with my own jungle, back there. I
01:39:00built a little pond and just spend my time there and look back. All of a sudden,
the reality of Him is, again, into my life. There's my hope.
HODGE: I do have a question. Albert, would you like to tell them about your
vision and the song?
CHENG: Yes. Thank you. That's also another aspect of life itself. I didn't know
anything about folk here, the Amazing Grace song. At that moment, the song it
begins to [start] singing inside of me, Amazing Grace. I remember that page, on
page 280, and what the song was singing is so vital and so alive. Yet, [I] tried
01:40:00to understand it all, which I couldn't understand it, which is another impact of
the life inside of me. I just hold on to that moment. It's something so
wonderful. Then, by the morning, when I awake, I hold on to that song, just
holding me. I run to one of the teachers, her name is Pam Miller. She's the one
who played the piano. But, you know, singing is not my nature, and I tried to
tell her from that last night about this song. She tried to figure it out and
play it. She just said, "Why don't you just sing it?" Somehow, I was not the one
who was singing it. Somehow it just comes out. (phone rings) She [said] to me,
"That's called Amazing Grace, don't you know?" I just [said], "Thank you." Then,
01:41:00I came to find a hymnal and I turned [to the song]. When I begin to read word by
word, my tears and my snot just pouring out. It's like, I was lost, and now I'm
found. I went through it all, life and death. Yet, the amazing[ness] of God's
grace when those kinds of things [are] so tangible, so meaningful, and yet, so
personal, I just hold it, hold it so precious, that part of the song.
SLOAN: Albert, I want to thank you for taking time. It's not an easy story to
tell, but I think you for sharing it. I know it's hard for you to put into words
01:42:00for us to understand, and it's hard to try, but I appreciate you trying because
we want to understand, and we want others to be able to understand. The only way
they can is through you sharing your experiences, so thank you.
CHENG: I want to thank also for having this moment of the opportunity to make my
voice, where two million have no voice at all--have no voice, besides them
crying for help. I want to appreciate each one of you to make this voice known.
It's not me, but their voice, too. Their voices of suffering, the voice of
justice, the voice of freedom, those are the kinds of voice that they long for,
and they never have it. At least I'll voice it out for them, not just me. I
01:43:00thank each one of you for giving me the opportunity, as well.
end of interview