Texas Liberators - Sigmund Liberman (December 14, 2011)

SLOAN: All right, the date is December 14, 2011. I'm with Mr. Sigmund Liberman in his apartment in Plano [Texas]. This is an interview for the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission's Texas Liberators Project. Thank you, Mr. Liberman, for sitting down with me today and allowing us to take up some of your time today and some of your home today for this.

LIBERMAN: My pleasure.

SLOAN: As I said, I would like to begin by getting a little bit of background, so if you could tell me a little bit about the Liberman family, and maybe your mother's family as well, and a little bit about your family background.

LIBERMAN: Well, I was born and raised in Seattle, Washington. And my mother was born in Ceylon, India. Her father was an English--followed the English army as a tailor. She came to San Francisco at six years old. And she was lost during the 00:01:00earthquake, and they found her. And then they moved to Seattle. My father came over from Poland at ten years old and went to San Francisco with--to meet his uncle. And then he went to Seattle, and then went to Alaska before World War I. And he came out to enlist in the army. And he was not drafted, but he did not serve. He was--something wrong with him.

And I was just raised there as a normal kid. I went to Garfield High School. I was the editor of our high school paper and went on to college. I wanted to become a journalist at that time, but my father said, "No, you're going to be an 00:02:00engineer or doctor or lawyer, one of the professions." And so I ran away from home and went to Alaska after one year of college, because I could not afford it. And he wouldn't contribute to my college other than the fields that he wanted.

SLOAN: What was it about journalism that you--

LIBERMAN: I don't know. I just liked to write at that time. I found it very fascinating. So I went to Alaska and worked for the US Army Engineers [US Army Corps of Engineers] for two years. And we were building a navy base at Seward, Alaska on December 7. And the Japanese did fly over Seward. People don't know that, but they did fly over. And I was very friendly with the commander of the 00:03:00base that we were building. I was assistant to the superintendent and, as a result, he asked me to join the navy. So I came out to join the navy air force. And I was color-blind at that time, so they wouldn't take me. So I enlisted in the army. And I came to Texas--Weatherford, Texas--as an infantry trainee. And then the infantry sent me to Fordham University as an engineering cadet for a year under the AST Program [ASTP, or Army Specialized Training Program]. And I was at Fordham and the army recalled all those students, and we all went to Camp 00:04:00Carson, Colorado, and joined the 104th Timberwolves.

SLOAN: So you ended up in kind of an engineering area anyway.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: You ran away from it, but--

LIBERMAN: But it came back to me.

SLOAN: --it came back to you. Well, I'd like to go back and talk about that. Can you remember about the decision to run away, just, what you thought, and why Alaska?

LIBERMAN: Well, they were building bases in Alaska. They were making big money up there. And I lived in Seattle, so I got on a boat with fifty dollars to my name. And we were down steerage, way, way down and sleeping in bunks. And I got in poker games with the crew, and I lost all my money. So I landed in Seward, 00:05:00Alaska, and went into the restaurant there, and asked them if I could wash dishes or do something to earn money. And he said no, and he gave me a twenty-dollar meal ticket. And they clip off the dollar amount that you spend. He says, "You'll pay me when you leave." Well, I worked around there at unloading the ships and everything, and made enough and went to--I took the train and went to Anchorage, Alaska, and got a job with the army engineers. My first job was laying sewer lines and then surveying sewer lines. And I was the only one of the group that could type, or knew anything about office management, 00:06:00and so they made me the assistant to the superintendent. And they transferred all of us to Seward to build this navy air base. And that's where I stayed for about a year.

SLOAN: So you were making money.

LIBERMAN: Oh yeah. I was making--it was very strange at the time. I was making seventeen hundred dollars a month, at that time, and paying fifty dollars a month for board and room. And the navy has bunkhouses as well as a mess hall. And we'd come in off of work and there'd be pies, and desserts and everything, food twenty-four hours a day. So I was living like a king.

SLOAN: Well, because, I mean, we're--most of the nation's still in the Depression then, or at the tail end of the Depression. So that was a lot of money.

LIBERMAN: It was.

SLOAN: Yeah.

LIBERMAN: And I came out with quite a bit of money. And first thing I did was buy my mother a fur coat and a new living room set.

SLOAN: That soothed feelings for running away, I guess.

LIBERMAN: Yeah. I thought I would repay it. (both laugh)

SLOAN: Well, you mentioned Pearl Harbor. I'd like to ask you about that because most people have a, kind of, a clear memory of that event, and when they heard of that event. And you talked a little bit about it, but can you tell me when you heard about what happened at Pearl Harbor?

LIBERMAN: Well, I was at Seward, Alaska, when we heard about Pearl Harbor. And the first thing the soldiers did in Seward, they went up to the hotel and arrested the manager, who was Japanese. And he had a telegraph and radio 00:08:00upstairs that he was sending messages back. And he'd been living there all of these years, and they had known about it. And so the next day, when the Japanese flew over Seward, and they were out on the islands, the Aleutian Islands, they sort of put us under real close contact. And I remember sitting in a machine gun nest as protection. And because we weren't--we weren't in the military. We were civilians. But then we had to hurry up and build the base. And it was for navy sea planes.

SLOAN: Okay. Well, let's go to when you talked about your failed attempt to get 00:09:00into the navy. So you ended up in the army.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: And talk about that decision to enlist. And when was that?

LIBERMAN: Uh, forty--the end of '43.

SLOAN: Okay, the end of '43, okay.

LIBERMAN: I enlisted in the army, and they thought I'd ordered transportation OCS. And they hung me around Fort Lewis for a month and a half, waiting for openings, and there wasn't any openings, but they needed some infantry people, so all of us that were stagnant were sent to Weatherford, Texas, to infantry basic. And that's where I took my infantry basic, and then went on to Fordham 00:10:00University, and then back to Camp Carson, Colorado.

SLOAN: What are some of your memories from basic?

LIBERMAN: Well, one of the most rememberable things, our sergeant used to put salt--he told us to use salt in our canteen so you wouldn't drink so much water. So we all did that, obeying him, and then when we went out on our forced march, he'd come by and put more salt in. So we never did get any water all the time we were on these marches. And that was really hurting us by not--becoming dehydrated, and not having any water.

SLOAN: Oh gosh, yeah.

LIBERMAN: And the other thing I remember is that one time we told the sergeant to go too, and so he put us on KP for a week. And I remember peeling potatoes for a week, those great big bags of potatoes and hundred-pound sacks that we had to peel. And I remember that distinctly.

SLOAN: Well, one thing I think I know the answer to, but I'd like to ask was, being of Polish descent, I would imagine the family and your father were watching events going on in Europe--

LIBERMAN: Oh definitely, yeah. Yes, yes.

SLOAN: --in the late thirties. Can you talk a little bit about that?

LIBERMAN: His sister was left there with two children. And her husband and the family were on a train going to Dachau. And the father pushed her and the two 00:12:00kids off the train when they were traveling through France. And so she lived with the French people during the war. And he was--went to concentration camp and was cremated. But we finally found her in Antwerp, Belgium. And so my father and I paid her way and sent her to Israel, and she died in Israel. But her daughter came to New York and worked for a French railroad. And her son stayed in Israel and became a major in the tank force during the war.

SLOAN: Now, a lot of this you found out, of course, later, afterwards.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: But as far as watching the events going on in Poland in the late thirties, what were your thoughts? I want to talk about your thoughts about the Japanese in a minute, but, just--I know your father was probably watching it very closely.

LIBERMAN: Yeah, I wasn't too close to the European situation at that time. But after I enlisted, and Hitler really came into power, then I was very much interested in it.

SLOAN: Well, I'd love to--I've spoken with another veteran about this training, this night-fighting training that you did at Camp Carson. Can you talk a little bit about that? Once you got into the Timberwolf division and--

LIBERMAN: Well, I don't remember too much. I remember going up Pike's Peak a couple of times. But we'd go out at night. And our colonel was Colonel Fernald, 00:14:00Major Fernald at that time. And he'd make us go on forced marches. And we learned to fight at night without the night-goggles that they have now. But it was safer for us to make advances during the night because the Germans were asleep, or they weren't alert at night as much as we were trained to try to see at night, and visualize noises and people, and motions.

SLOAN: So what sort of maneuvers or training did you do to--

LIBERMAN: Well, I don't remember anything special for night fighting, but I remember forced marches and training in bunkers and building foxholes.

SLOAN: Well, what'd you think of military life, now that you were really--you weren't a civilian on a base?

LIBERMAN: I didn't mind it at all. I didn't want to be an enlisted man all my life. And I tried to become an officer during the war, but our--they'd never advance us or give us a battlefield commission in the 104th.

SLOAN: Now--so you're training. When did you know you were going to be deployed? Or when did you get news that you were about to be deployed, and where you were going? I guess you didn't know where you were going, but--yeah, yeah.

LIBERMAN: We didn't know where we were going. We went over to Cherbourg, France, 00:16:00and landed there, and then advanced on Brest. And then the Jersey Islands were just off of Brest, France, and the Germans were still there. But they never asked us to go over there, because they were just stranded and they couldn't do any good. So they just stayed there for the rest of the war. But I don't know. You would learn so much during the war, being with people, and trusting them, that when I got wounded and went to the hospital, we went AWOL from the hospital. So we go back up to our division rather than going to repple depple 00:17:00[replacement depot]. And the reason we did that was because we knew the people who we were sleeping with, and who we were fighting with, and eating our meals with. And they all trusted me, and I trusted them.

SLOAN: Well, when you got to France, did--can you talk about the first interaction with any of the civilians there?

LIBERMAN: With the civilians? Well, the first interaction was when we left Brest--uh, left Brest, France, to go to Belgium on the train. That was my first reaction with French civilians. And personally, I've been back there twice, but 00:18:00I have no use for the French. I love the Dutch, they treated us really well, and remember us, and were thankful for us. And the Belgians were also.

SLOAN: So you get into France. You go to Belgium after that. At what point did y'all meet some resistance, or did you get toward the front?

LIBERMAN: Well, we met resistance in Belgium, and into Holland, and then into Aachen, Germany, resistance all the way. We were on the front lines for over a hundred days.

SLOAN: Yeah. Well, can you take me to that first--where you realized, you know, 00:19:00there's training for combat, but that first experience of combat that you remember? What that was like for you?

LIBERMAN: Well, we weren't scared, I don't think. We were worried, and we didn't want to get shot at. We were tired, but we stayed close to our buddies. And I was assigned to a mortar squad at that time. And so I was behind the riflemen, shooting mortars out. And the only time we were out there was when we became a forward observer, which was about every third day. And then we were in advance of the troops, and that was a little scary.

SLOAN: I would imagine. Well, you know, what you talked about, the camaraderie, that's hard for ordinary people to understand. That you're fighting for the guy beside you.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: Yeah, yeah.

LIBERMAN: The same guy in a foxhole with you. And when somebody got shot who was close to you, it really worried you. And my men, a couple of times when we were surrounded by Germans, we were in a warehouse filled with turnips. And knowing that I was Jewish, my comrades put us in this big pile of turnips, covered us up so we wouldn't be captured, and three or four of them surrendered and were sent 00:21:00to a POW camp. And it was a good thing the Germans didn't shoot into the turnips. They came in with their bayonets and poked in, but we were further in than they were. So that was one of my scariest positions and one that showed real camaraderie with my fellow soldiers.

SLOAN: Now, who had the idea of burying you in the turnips?

LIBERMAN: They did.

SLOAN: They did. And so how many of you and your comrades were buried in the turnips?

LIBERMAN: About eight of us.

SLOAN: Eight of you. And so they searched it, but they weren't able to find you.

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: So what happened after they left?

LIBERMAN: Well, we got out--

SLOAN: Yeah.

LIBERMAN: --and went back to our troops.

SLOAN: All eight of you made it out?

LIBERMAN: Yes, we were still fighting.

SLOAN: Wow, that's amazing. The sacrifice that those others were willing to be captured for.

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: Yeah. Well, now, you mentioned it earlier, but if you could tell the story of--I know you were wounded. Do you mind sharing that story with us?

LIBERMAN: Well, I was in the northern limits of the Battle of the Bulge. And it was snowing and freezing weather. And I got trench foot. And then the Germans were shooting at us, and throwing mortars, and I had a mortar wound in my foot. And that's when I was sent back to the hospital. And my feet are still frozen, 00:23:00and they're very, very cold. But, that's just one of the things that happened.

SLOAN: So you're on a--you're doing mortars, that was your assignment. You were a mortarman.

LIBERMAN: Yeah, I was a mortarman. I had a platoon. I was the leader of a platoon. And we put stakes out and lined the mortar up. And carrying the mortars and the shells was really rough when we went through Holland and Belgium, on the irrigation ditches. The base plate must have weighed fifty pounds. And then you had to carry the tube and the pedestal and ammunition, which was in cartons. 00:24:00And, so--

SLOAN: Were the supply lines pretty good with ammunition?

LIBERMAN: Yeah, they weren't bad, I mean, there was one time in Belgium--yeah, I think it was Belgium. We were on the front lines, and the Germans had us. Snipers were shooting at us, and they had us pretty well covered. And they brought meals out to us, but we couldn't go back and get the meals. So we just dug our foxholes deeper and deeper, and covered them, and made them almost into a living room. And, we took the mortar carton--the shell came in a cardboard carton. And we'd go to the bathroom in the carton and throw it out of the chute. 00:25:00And the snipers would shoot the mortar carton. (Sloan laughs) That was some of the funny parts of the war.

SLOAN: Yeah. You had to get creative, yeah. Well, I know you had talked about World War I. I know a lot of the men who trained you were World War I veterans and were familiar with how that war had been fought. As far as in your training, and--

LIBERMAN: Well, there were just a few.

SLOAN: Just a few?

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: Yeah. The--doing mortar work, was the range and accuracy of the mortars--could you--did you have pretty good range and accuracy with the mortars?

LIBERMAN: Yes, they had very good accuracy. In fact, the German mortars were so 00:26:00accurate that, one time, we had mortar fire coming in, and I took the whole squad through that fire, because I knew where every shell was going to land. And nobody was wounded or anything. We advanced right through it because they were fields of searching, and they were alternating their mortar rounds.

SLOAN: Oh, I see, looking for a strike?

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: Okay, okay. Well, can you talk a little more--that experience of the Battle of the Bulge, of course, is a, you know--I know for a lot of veterans was a low point, just the difficulties of the Battle of the Bulge.

LIBERMAN: Well, yeah. We were in the northernmost limits of the Battle of the Bulge. And our secondary line, which was in line with Bastogne, was thirty-five 00:27:00miles back. So if they broke the line any more, we'd have to retreat thirty-five miles back. And we couldn't do that because we wanted to keep on going. And that's when Bastogne was saved. And we could see the tanks going down there. And the Germans were well-equipped. They wore white uniforms, white outerwear, warm clothing, and everything else. And we couldn't even get fresh socks.

SLOAN: That's why your feet were cold.

LIBERMAN: Yeah. For fourteen days, we were up there.

SLOAN: Yeah, yeah, the northernmost of the line sounds cold.

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: Sounds really cold. Well, when you made that--when you began to advance then, can you take me through, kind of, what happened next, when that broke through and you began to advance?

LIBERMAN: Well, from there and on, we went as fast as we could. And Patton and General Rose advanced their tanks as fast as they could. Another thing I remember is General Rose coming up and asking if we'd seen any of his tanks. We told him, Yes, they were way out ahead of us. Generally, the tanks would go out and knock out the main things, and we'd follow up. And that's when he left. And that's when he got killed. He left and went up to his tanks, and they surrounded him. And he reached into his pocket, his breast pocket, to get out his ID, and 00:29:00they thought he was reaching for a gun. And that's when his driver turned around and got the hell out.

SLOAN: So you've got rapid movement going on there.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: Yeah, you're just trying to keep a rapid pace, pushing advances. Were you taking prisoners--

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: --German prisoners at that point?

LIBERMAN: We didn't take as many prisoners till the end, but we took prisoners as we went along.

SLOAN: And what was that like, finally having that sort of contact with the enemy?

LIBERMAN: Well, they knew that I, being Jewish, had more determination to kill the Germans. And they didn't bother me at all. I mean, they were with me, you 00:31:00might say, because of close camaraderieship of all of us. And we were really pretty close together. And one time our jeep driver, who was a Mexican from Nogales, Arizona, came and brought food to us through the enemy lines, because we were stranded. And so everybody knew what each other stood for. And I guess being Jewish, they respected me. And being in the infantry and not back in quartermaster or something, they had respect for me even greater.

SLOAN: Did--you know, we're working our way up to your experience at Nordhausen, but I'd like to ask when you began to have some knowledge of the German strategy towards the Jewish people--or the Nazi strategy towards the Jewish people.

LIBERMAN: Well, we'd heard on the news and everything. And the Stars and Stripes would have stories. We knew about it, but I didn't know we were going to go to a concentration camp where you would get close to it. Nordhausen was a confinement camp for workers. Nobody was shot or killed--was shot. They all starved to 00:33:00death. They were Polish and French and Russian workers that worked on the V-2 bomb at Nordhausen. And the Germans in the city said they couldn't know--they didn't know anything about that camp. Yet you could smell the stench of the dead people seven, eight miles away.

SLOAN: Well, let's start with you being sent--or coming upon Nordhausen. If you could, kind of, take me through that?

LIBERMAN: Well, our troops--the 104th was assigned to the city of Nordhuasen. And they heard about this concentration camp, so they sent me out there because I could speak a little German, and I could speak Yiddish a little bit. So I 00:34:00understood. And they sent me to the camp to help them, whatever was necessary. And we tried to get all our aid people in there to give those aids to those that were still alive. But as I showed you in the pictures, they were stacked up dead all over the place. And the living were like skeletons. But in the city of Nordhausen, our troops, not me, but our 104th infantry division, caught a German convoy, a train filled with Jews. They were leaving because they knew we were there. And they were leaving them to go to another camp, and go to a 00:35:00crematorium, or kill them or something. But at Nordhausen, all the people starved to death. And it was strange to see them, you know, nothing but bones and skin. And those living were barely walking around. And I remember seeing some of them, and they were French. And none of them--there weren't any Jews at that time in the camp because they were migrating out. And in the town, Nordhausen, there was all--I went in there to get all the men with shovels to come back to the camp and dig the graves for the dead. And they thought that I 00:36:00was going to have them come in and dig their own grave, and we would shoot them. But it turned out the other way. And we made them carry all of the bodies around to another hill, on the other side, and make them go through town, so the people knew that there was a concentration camp out there.

SLOAN: They had to carry the bodies through town--

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: --to get to this hill on the other side? Yeah, I know another serviceman said that they--in that town, they had forbid the citizens to wear gloves while they did it. They had to do it with their bare hands.

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: Did your little bit of German and Yiddish you knew serve you well, as far 00:37:00as communicating with the--

LIBERMAN: A little bit, yeah. Not at that moment, but more or less, when I was rounding up the men in town. And then in previous episodes of going into little cities, I could talk to the bürgermeister and get things done.

SLOAN: Well, when you were first sent out to the camp--can you take me through a little bit more about--I know you saw the bodies and I saw the pictures of that, but can you tell me a little bit more of, kind of, your emotional reaction to what you saw there?

LIBERMAN: Well, you would never expect to see the things that we saw going 00:38:00through there, I mean, where the dead were just stacked up. And I had been seeing dead people before, and people got shot, but here they were just lying, and nothing but skin and bones. And they'd been lying there maybe for weeks, or even months. And--I don't know, it's something--a sight that I'll never forget. It's implanted in my mind. And every time I look at those pictures, I could almost cry. And now the only good thing is I gave a speech one time, to a high school here in Dallas, about the Holocaust and Nordhausen. And a girl came up to me after the speech and said, "Thank you, Mr. Liberman." I said, "Thank me for 00:39:00what?" "For you liberating the camp. You--" she said, "I wouldn't be here now, if you hadn't done that. My grandfather was there."

SLOAN: Wow.

LIBERMAN: So here it brought back--again, one of the men that we freed went on to have grandchildren here in Dallas, Texas. So that--you know, it makes you real sad. And of course, it was sixty-five years ago, but still, the memory of it is--is rough.

SLOAN: When do you think of it? When does the memory come back to you?

LIBERMAN: Well, when somebody dies it comes back to me. And when this holocaust 00:40:00is going on now, in Africa and Syria and those places, I get memories of that picker thing because it's just back here again, even though we didn't want to see it happen again. But in Africa and in the Near East, it's going on again today. And we had hoped when we freed those camps and we got rid of Hitler and freed Germany that we'd never see that again. But--

SLOAN: You know, did that experience change, do you think, how you felt about the enemy, or how you viewed the enemy, in the war?

LIBERMAN: No.

SLOAN: No.

LIBERMAN: I still felt they were no good.

SLOAN: Well, how much time did you spend in the camp that first trip, before you went back into town to get--

LIBERMAN: I spent one day--

SLOAN: You spent one day, okay.

LIBERMAN: --and then I went back to get the people at the town.

SLOAN: Did you get a chance when you were there to--they sent you there to help with communicating with some of the prisoners?

LIBERMAN: No, I tried to help a couple of them but they were German--I mean, they were Polish and French, so I was no use to them.

SLOAN: Okay. And then you were there--you stayed there and saw some of the burials--

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: --that they did? What were the--I imagine this had to be very emotional 00:42:00for the German citizens that came out? And what was their reaction to that process?

LIBERMAN: Well, they said it couldn't happen, but it did. I mean, they couldn't believe it happened so close to them. They were trying to prove their innocence, but all the time--but I'm sure they weren't innocent, because just outside the camp was this factory in the mountains--in the towns, and there were--had to be trucks coming in and out, and they were building V-2 bombs as fast as they could inside this town. And it was, I think, over a half a mile long, and something like fifty kilometers wide, or something.

SLOAN: It was a huge complex.

LIBERMAN: They were huge. It was all underground.

SLOAN: Now, did you--you talked about this train they liberated, of Jews that were leaving. Did you have any interaction with--

LIBERMAN: No.

SLOAN: Okay. That was another group? Yeah. Well, we--so this was in April?

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: April. We didn't talk about--we haven't talked about yet the surrender, the news of the German surrender, yeah.

LIBERMAN: This happened, yeah, April 11 [1945].

SLOAN: Okay, that's right.

LIBERMAN: The surrender--the Russians were right next to us. We were bordering 00:44:00the Russian army. And the Germans were coming on our side. They didn't want to be with the Russians. So we caught, maybe, thousands of prisoners. We had to line them up in the fields and take them back to concentration camps and POW camps. And I never escorted any of them back, but I did witness them coming across and surrendering. And they were meek, you might say. They weren't very arrogant at that time. At other times, when we went--when we met Germans, they were very arrogant people.

SLOAN: Well, did you have occasion to interact with any of the Russian soldiers?

LIBERMAN: Yes, I went and stayed with the Russians for almost a week when they were advancing. And they always had a lady with them who did the cooking. And they lived off the land. And they had blood sausage and pork. And whatever they could find, they'd kill and cook. And we'd bring food up, and sometimes we couldn't even get to eat it. But the Russians were not as well-organized, you might say, as the US Army. But they were good fighters, and they were not afraid of anything.

SLOAN: That was the--you know, a lot of servicemen talk about what that was like, when they first met the Russians who'd been fighting so hard on the other front--

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: --for so long. So you ate their food. They didn't eat your food.

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: You ate blood sausage, and all that sort?

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: (laughs) Well, are there other things about your experience in the European theater that I should have asked you, that we didn't get into? Some stories that stand out to you?

LIBERMAN: Well, not necessarily. But I do have great respect, as I told you, for the Dutch and Belgian people. I've been back there, and I've been treated well. I've been back to Germany. And I went back with the DART board of directors to 00:47:00buy trains, from Dallas, for a transit system. And we were in Cologne, which the 104th captured. And these people--these train people from Cologne were bragging about how they defended the city. And they showed us pictures of the turned over trains that they stood behind. And I said, "Yes, I know that. I was here." And after that, they wouldn't even talk to me. I mean, they knew that I was an American soldier. They knew I was Jewish. And they wouldn't even talk to me.

SLOAN: So you've gone back, and have you, kind of, retraced some of your steps?

LIBERMAN: Not so much retracing, but I've been back to the same spots. They have tours which go back to the same spot. And that's why I tell you that the Dutch and Belgians just treat them royally. In fact, the Dutch come over here to our conventions and reunions.

SLOAN: Well, so we've gotten to surrender. You don't have enough points to get out yet, I guess, if you wanted to? You wanted to stay in?

LIBERMAN: I wanted to stay in. And they took our whole division, and sent us to California, to train for the invasion of Japan.

SLOAN: Were you at Pendleton?

LIBERMAN: No, it was San Luis Obispo.

SLOAN: Okay.

LIBERMAN: And we trained--we'd go out and load on ships every day, and disembark--and barges. And we would--the officers would say, Ninety percent of you aren't coming back. And we had a couple guys commit suicide because of that. And then the Japanese surrendered, as you know. And so then they disbanded us and sent us home. And when I got home I went back to college. And then I got my commission.

SLOAN: You were--the other event with the Japanese is, of course, when the bomb was dropped, the news. Do you remember where you were when you got that news 00:50:00that we had dropped an atomic bomb on Japan?

LIBERMAN: No, I don't.

SLOAN: No, no. Do you remember where you were when you got the news of the surrender, though?

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: (laughs) How'd that feel?

LIBERMAN: Great. (both laugh) We weren't going over.

SLOAN: So you were still in California--

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: --training, at that time? Now, so from there, you didn't go back to Washington, you went to--

LIBERMAN: No, I went back to Washington.

SLOAN: Oh, you went back to Washington.

LIBERMAN: I went back to Seattle and graduated the University of Washington.

SLOAN: Okay.

LIBERMAN: In international relations and foreign trade. And then I went to graduate school in Phoenix, Arizona.

SLOAN: Okay. So you're a Husky?

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: You're a Husky. Well, we're playing you in the upcoming Bowl game, but I 00:51:00won't get into it. (both laugh) So you moved to Arizona after that and can you talk about your graduate training in Arizona?

LIBERMAN: Well, it was a very close school. I was in the second year, and we were out at Ryan Air Base. And they made our wives go with us to classes. The books and everything we had were in Spanish. And we lived off of campus. We didn't live on campus. And we had to interpret the books and think of everything in Spanish. And our wives had to go to class with us. We had great teachers, 00:52:00former ambassadors and business people. And then I got a job with Sears, Roebuck [& Company] to go to Mexico and train for a manager of a Mexican store. But they sent us to San Antonio, to train for a year. And when I was ready to go to Mexico, the Mexican government said that we couldn't send any more people, because we already had ten percent of the salaries. And Sears thought it was ten percent of the people. (Sloan laughs) So there's a lot of difference.

SLOAN: So that's when--is that when you relocated?

LIBERMAN: Yes, I relocated to Arizona, and went to Coolidge, Arizona. And I had 00:53:00a department store there. And I became mayor of the city.

SLOAN: Well, so you were mayor--mayor of Coolidge, huh?

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: I know where Coolidge, Arizona, is. When were you mayor of Coolidge? Is this in the fifties?

LIBERMAN: No, in the seventies.

SLOAN: Seventies, okay.

LIBERMAN: Late seventies.

SLOAN: Okay.

LIBERMAN: And I was also president of the Arizona League of Cities and Towns for two years. I had an office in Phoenix.

SLOAN: Well, that's really interesting. So what were some of the main issues you were dealing with when you were president of that group in Arizona?

LIBERMAN: Well, cooperation with the state and getting money for the cities.

SLOAN: Arizona is such an urban--

LIBERMAN: Yeah.

SLOAN: I mean Phoenix is--

LIBERMAN: Yeah, and not to have the restrictions that they put on us. They put a lot of restrictions on scientific advancements.

SLOAN: Well--and then you relocated. You talked about your store that you had here. When did you move to Texas?

LIBERMAN: I moved to Dallas, in '72--yeah, '72, to open up an office for the Le Baron clothes. And I was the national salesman, so I located here because of the DFW Airport. I could be in Chicago, New York, LA, Florida, all within two hours.

SLOAN: Did you enjoy travel?

LIBERMAN: Yes, very much so. I miss it.

SLOAN: Of course, flying was very different back then than it is now.

LIBERMAN: Oh yes. Flying between here and Fort Worth, you go up and down.

SLOAN: You would also dress up to fly, which--

LIBERMAN: Yes.

SLOAN: --people don't do that anymore.

LIBERMAN: Shirt and tie.

SLOAN: That's right. Well, I want to ask--you know, your story that you shared earlier about this--the granddaughter of the survivor of one of the camps, hints at it a little bit. But I'd like for you to talk a little bit about what it's meant for you, these sixty-five years, to know that part of your experience in World War II was you were a liberator of these camps. What has that meant to you?

LIBERMAN: Well, I think that it meant that we did something well, and 00:56:00accomplished certain role. And not all of the Jews in Europe were cremated, there were some saved. There are Holocaust victims left here in the States, and also in the city here. And I think that the main thing is that we should not forget. And that's the one thing that I've been talking about at high schools and different schools. Most kids today don't even remember World War II. And here was the annihilation of a complete race of people. And they're trying to do it again, as I said, in Africa. Well, it just is impossible to think of it 00:57:00happening, even in Africa or the Near East, where somebody, like in Syria, can kill a thousand people, or in Africa, hundreds of thousands. It doesn't seem possible in their minds that they could do this, but here it is.

SLOAN: Well, do you think your faith--I know your faith is very important to you. As you think about your faith and that experience, do you think it made that experience different for you, as you--

LIBERMAN: Yes, definitely.

SLOAN: In what ways? Can you talk a little bit about that?

LIBERMAN: Well, I think it made a difference because I was part of them. And I had ancestors from there. And I had ancestors killed during the--and I don't 00:58:00know how many others--than my father's brother-in-law. I don't know how many other people were killed. I'm grateful that I had participated in it. And I'll always remember that I was part of it. And I was on the good part. And I just hope that I could do something about these things that are going on now, but it's almost impossible at my age and in my condition to do anything about that, even though I'd like to. But, who knows?

SLOAN: Well, I think you have an understanding of how horrible it is, these atrocities.

LIBERMAN: Definitely.

SLOAN: Well, is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't ask you?

LIBERMAN: No. We didn't talk much about Nordhausen, but there wasn't that much to talk about. It was mostly our experiences that led up to that, but--

SLOAN: Was there--are there other things about Nordhausen that you'd like to share?

LIBERMAN: No, no, just the ignorance of the people around it. I mean, this must have been at every one of the concentration camps, in Auschwitz and Buchenwald, in all of them, where the people, the German residents were trying to be 01:00:00innocent. And it's almost impossible for me to believe that--of their innocence, because of their closeness and the activity that went on.

SLOAN: Well, Robert DeBoard is here with us, he's my graduate assistant. He's recording for us, but I'll ask, Robert, did you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr. Liberman?

DeBOARD: Yeah, actually. You had mentioned very early on in the interview your aunt, who was your father's sister, who was from Poland, and then after the war, went to live in Israel.

LIBERMAN: Yes.

DeBOARD: You mentioned that her son served in Israel, in the military. Has your experience with Nordhausen and serving in the war--has that affected your views 01:01:00towards Israel and, kind of, the history that's gone on since the war? Because it's about the same time that Israel's, kind of, coming into being.

LIBERMAN: Well, I think Israel has a right to exist. There are some things wrong on the platform. I think the Palestinians have a right to their state, but not the way they're going about it. They're going in the back door of the United Nations, which is wrong. And the borderline should be dictated by Israel and wherever they want the border for their protection. And that's the way I feel about that. I have relatives there. I've been there. And it's a very advanced country, very knowledgeable. But they have no say, and our present US State 01:02:00Department has the wrong attitude toward Israel. With Iran having the bomb, we know that Israel could go in there and knock it out because--US is saying one thing, and then another thing. They're sending these blockbuster thirty-ton bombs to Israel, which can go two hundred feet into the ground, and why are they sending those?

I think the United States needs to stand up and be strong, and just tell the Near East the way they feel: in Syria, in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and all over. 01:03:00In Iraq, for instance, my only feeling in the solution there is to have five different states, one for each religious personality and tribe, and then all uniform under one. But nobody's even thought of that. I mean, they talk about it, but nothing's been done about it. And in Iran, nothing's going to be done. I mean, these sanctions against their bank account and everything else is not going to do any good. You've got to get rid of it. And I don't mean to drop an atomic bomb there, but I think there's ways to get rid of the--of their 01:04:00factories and everything else.

DeBOARD: Could you maybe talk about--maybe, kind of, discuss a little bit of your feelings--because, like, shortly after the war ends, I think 1947, the UN starts looking at the mandate [British Mandate for Palestine] differently in Palestine. Could you maybe talk about--like, did you pay attention to any of that? Maybe some feelings you had towards that.

LIBERMAN: The what?

DeBOARD: Could you maybe discuss your feelings towards 1947, 1948, and the UN getting involved with the mandate? Did you pay attention to--

LIBERMAN: Well, in 1946, when I was in graduate school, or '48, they asked me to join the Israel Defense Forces as an officer because they needed infantry people. But I didn't want to lose my citizenship, so I didn't even think about 01:05:00it. But United Nations had to go in there and set it up. And I think they did the right thing. I don't think Jerusalem should go to the Arabs. It's a Jewish city. It goes way back before Christ, in Biblical times. And the Palestinians didn't even exist then. Most of the Palestinians today are Jordanians. And the right of survival for a million people to come back to Israel, claim their homes, is altogether wrong. I mean, they left, because of the Arab attack on Israel.

And I think the United Nations is not doing the right thing now by allowing them to come in the back door. I think they should just come out and say, No, you can't be a nation, and let them and Israel satisfy their lines. Israel has offered three or four times lines of boundaries and cities they would trade for stuff they have on the West Bank. But Jerusalem should be an open city. It's home to a lot of religious--Jewish factors, Catholic, and Mohammed. And that's 01:07:00the way my feelings are.

SLOAN: Well, anything else we should have asked you about that we didn't ask you? I want to make sure we didn't miss anything.

LIBERMAN: Pardon?

SLOAN: Anything else we should have asked you about that we didn't ask you?

LIBERMAN: No.

SLOAN: We've asked you a lot of questions.

LIBERMAN: I know.

SLOAN: (laughs) Well, Robert and I would like to thank you, for your service to our country, and also for sharing your experiences with us today. But we're going to cut it off now.

LIBERMAN: Okay.

SLOAN: All right. Thank you, Mr. Liberman.

LIBERMAN: Thank you.

end of interview